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by Jef Szi
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- 3 weeks ago1h 8m
#57: Ryan Balch - The Psychology of Social Friction
In episode #57 of the How Humans Work Podcast, I sit down with social psychology and education policy expert Ryan Balch to explore the underlying evolutionary social forces that drive our behaviors and create challenges in our society. With tremendous ease and good-heartedness, Ryan walks us through core motivations, disconnects, and other hazards that our default "System 1" thinking brings to the table.By understanding both System 1 thinking and the core needs for value and belonging, we can grasp the why and how our snap categorizations and defensive instincts seek to protect our identities in a highly segregated society, generating social and conversational friction. Balch explains how deep-seated human needs for belonging and security often masquerade as rigid political stances, leading to profound communication breakdowns.Further in, we learn practical, "System 2" strategies to overcome these defensive reactions, primarily by shifting the goal of a conversation from "winning" to "understanding". By asking curious questions, navigating cognitive dissonance, and recognizing that challenged beliefs can literally feel like physical threats to the brain, this episode offers a compassionate roadmap for building genuine human connections in an age where difficult conversations lead to polarizations and social strife.Thank you, Ryan, for being on the show and giving us simple, clear, and powerful insights to help us navigate differences in a constructive and caring way.Key TakeawaysThe Default Mode: Our brains naturally rely on "System 1" thinking, which is quick, automatic, and instinctually focused on categorizing others.The Root of Disconnect: We frequently confuse our internal emotional needs for security and control with outward political policy statements.Defensive Reactions: When our ideas are challenged, it threatens our sense of security and creates cognitive dissonance.Moving the Goalposts: We often try to reduce this internal tension defensively by blaming others or shifting the parameters of the argument.The Media's Role: News outlets capitalize on our natural uncertainty by providing outrage-inducing narratives that give our brains rewarding hits of dopamine.Shifting Goals: To foster better interactions, we must consciously apply "System 2" effort to change our conversational goal from trying to convince to trying to understand.The Power of Empathy: Brain scans show that receiving a counteracting idea can register in the brain similarly to a physical knife attack.Grace in Dialogue: Recognizing this biological reality highlights the vital need for grace, curiosity, and compassion when engaging with differing perspectives.About Ryan Balch:Ryan is a Senior Lecturer in the Psychology and LPO department at Vanderbilt University, where he teaches classes on social psychology, general psychology, and education policy. He completed his Ph.D. in Education Policy at Vanderbilt University as an Institute of Education Sciences (IES) Fellow, during which his dissertation focused on the development and validation of student surveys of teacher practice. Following graduation, Ryan was the director of teacher and principal evaluation for Baltimore City Schools. During this time, he oversaw the creation and implementation of the district’s new evaluation systems. Previously, Ryan worked for 7 years as a psychology and science teacher and administrator at Riverwood High School in Atlanta, Georgia. He has a B.A. in Psychology from Duke University and an M.A. in Science Education from Georgia State University. Ryan plays ultimate frisbee and enjoys coaching and being involved in all the activities of his 13 and 11-year-old kids.Show ResourcesArticle on Vulnerability by Ryan’s Social Psych StudentsProductive Conversation AssignmentHeineken Worlds Apart CommercialTerry Dobson’s Aikido Story<a href="https://jeffrey-szilagyi.squarespace.com/episode-2
- Mar 30, 20261h 1m
#56: Survival International - We Can Return Again
We Can Return Again is a powerful episode that explores the critical work of Survival International, an organization dedicated to protecting indigenous and uncontacted peoples worldwide. Hal Russell, Asia and Pacific Research and Advocacy Officer with Survival, joins host Jef Szi to guide us through the many threats indigenous and uncontacted communities face.Along the way, we come to understand the extreme vulnerability and survival pressures these communities have. Whether it is illegal logging, deforestation, nickel mining, drug traffickers, governmental indifference, or self-centered influencers, each of these forces is putting our contemporaries, who have chosen a self-sufficient lifestyle to avoid the historical and ongoing traumas of colonialism, into real danger.With great facility and immense dedication, Hal walks us through the serious challenges while also offering a powerful ethos and meaningful obligation, inviting us to recognize these communities' fundamental rights to continue to exist and what we can do individually and collectively to support them.This conversation helps us wake up to an unpublicized tragedy, the irreplaceable loss of people, their cultures rich with long-held knowledge. At the heart of the show, we come to find the best guardians for the land and the people who depend on healthy ecosystems for their well-being. The episode concludes by looking at the work of Paul Rosolie, an increasingly popular advocate for the people of the Amazon.About Survival International: Founded in 1969, Survival International is a global movement campaigning for the rights of indigenous and uncontacted peoples. They advocate for the fundamental right of these communities to be "different and free," prioritizing land rights as the most critical factor for their survival. The organization challenges destructive practices that displace indigenous peoples from their lands. Survival stands in solidarity with indigenous peoples, ensuring their voices are heard and their ancestral territories are protected for generations to come.Resources and Links:Survival International Website (Join and Donate!)Read the PDF: Uncontacted Indigenous Peoples: At the Edge of Survival Video Report documenting nickel mining on Hongana Manyawa lands.More on Uncontacted Peoples
- Feb 2, 20261h 1m
#55: Chris Burris - Healing with Others
Chris Burris is a Senior Lead IFS Trainer and a clinical consultant with decades of experience in mental health and group work. Chris is based in North Carolina and leads training for the IFS Institute and his Creating Healing Circles work worldwide.Last month, Chris joined Jef Szi for an in-depth conversation that illuminates the power, purpose, and benefits of healing with others. Along the way, we get to know the variety of influences and the backstory to Chris's group work, including a need to help his clients have real spaces to work on their social challenges, and Chris's interest in finding new models of authenticity that don't require being hijacked by reactive emotions.You can learn more about his work through his terrific how-to book, Creating Healing Circles.With tremendous kindness and boatloads of reference points, Chris helps us understand why healing circles are an essential tool for healing from traumas and for offsetting the hyper-individualism found in most personal-growth work.Chris teaches us that most traumas arise in relationships and are also healed through supportive, non-threatening contexts where participants can experience others as advocates and allies. He also shows us that well-run Healing Circles can allow participants to test new ways of being that are more cohesive and less isolating.Throughout Healing with Others, Chris offers his grounded perspectives; whether it's on the Internal Family Systems model, the pros and cons of Men's work in the 1980's and 1990's, or how nature is another kind of healing force, we are well instructed by Chris and his extensive knowledge on group work and the healing process.Perhaps the heart of Chris's teaching is the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model. In this conversation, he breaks down the model, showing how IFS is a constraint-and-release model whose core notion of an innate Self is characterized by calmness, curiosity, and compassion, and how the various "parts" play a role in protecting the Self. We also learn from Chris and kind way of thinking about our parts, and how these protective and often reactive voices within us frequently eclipse our core energy, leading us to relate to ourselves and others in harsh or critical ways.With Chris, we take another step forward in imagining what it takes to be more cohesive as a society. In this case, the path forward is to challenge our assumptions about the do-it-alone approach. Instead, we are encouraged towards the chance to be with others, dropping in deeply, where trauma and social connections can be transformed as a community. Few are better positioned to show what this path looks like than the heart-centered and wise Chris Burris.Thank you for being on the show, Chris!About Chris Burris: Chris is a Clinical Consultant and Senior Lead Trainer for the Center for Self Leadership. Chris has been a psychotherapist since 1989, working with diverse populations in community agencies, intensive residential centers, institutions of higher learning, and in private practice.He began training in the Internal Family Systems model in 1999 and is currently a Senior Lead Trainer for the Internal Family Systems Institute, where he teaches Level 1, Level II, and Level III trainings and serves as a trainer and mentor for new IFS training staff.Resources:Get On Chris's Mailing ListOrder Chris's BookTry the Exercise Spoken About in the Show
- Jan 28, 202617 min
Bonus Episode #10: The Unapologetic American with Jef Szi
Episode Summary:Recent events in America from Minneapolis to Washington D.C., show us that unapologetic postures and political strategies are attractive to some who are interested in power.In this special bonus episode, Jef Szi shares his recent essay about this unapologetic trend on full display not just in the terrible shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti, but in the Trump administrations response to those events.Jef show us how empathy and social care are essential tools as we aim to stay human in inhumane times. An important reminder that our feelings are not just difficult, but part of the solution.Finally, Jef shares his most recent poem. It imagines Adam apologizing to Eve in The Garden of Eden.
- Dec 21, 202552 min
#54: East Forest - The Soul is Smiling
East Forest joins the How Humans Work Podcast for a special Winter Solstice episode. With a generous mind and grounded heart, East walks us through how his Music For Mushrooms Documentary was birthed, as well as the creative gifts and challenges that came along with that project.Special Note: WATCH it FOR FREE ON YOUTUBE 12-21-2025 to 12-31-2025 Additionally, this conversation explores East's connection to ceremony, elders, influential indigenous traditions, and his subtle nuances and commitments it takes to honor the creative process.Finally, this show weaves bits of East Forest's remarkable music as he reminds us to remember the power of intention, of community, of retreat, of simple presence, and that curating spaces to listen to our soul are gifts that allow us to find the smile inside our soul. #eastforest #musicformushrooms #psychedelicmedicines #music #ambient #courtjohnson #ramdass #lorraineweiss #ceremony #ayahuasca #esalen #bigsur #healing #humannature #jefszi #howhumanswork
- Nov 15, 202556 min
#53: Nina Chase - It's Not For You
Episode SummaryLandscape Architect Nina Chase, sits down with Jef Szi for a terrific exploration of her work imagining and designing public spaces. Nina’s easy and honest expertise deepens our view on what fosters Social Cohesion. She helps surface the amazing, often understated, network of relationships connected to an everyday discipline shaping our lives. With an abundance of talent and inspiration, Nina teaches us the important role architects of public spaces play in our history and our future. With her unique understanding of cities and communities across Middle-America, she exemplifies the powerful capacity landscape architecture has to subtly re-imagine and redefine the common spaces that anchor us.What we ultimately find in Nina’s work are the seeds for better-connected communities, healthier and more well-adjusted humans, and a closer connection with the natural world—especially the crucial role of trees. In It’s Not For You, we find a refreshing power in good-hearted folks like Nina, and her colleagues, who are endeavoring to shape what comes next, designing with clear-eyed care for the web of life and a sensible commitment to the needs of future generations. We find a sober reminder, our role is to plan and plant for a future that will carry on beyond our us. *****About Nina Chase:Nina Chase is a landscape architect and Founding Principal of Merritt Chase. Her work focuses on creating meaningful, public spaces across Middle America. Born and raised in West Virginia, Nina graduated from West Virginia University and Harvard’s Graduate School of Design. She spent her early career in Boston designing and planning notable public parks and open spaces. Today, Nina leads Merritt Chase’s urban work, planning and designing public parks, plazas, waterfronts, and cultural districts. Nina is dedicated to the design community through teaching, writing, and advocacy. She frequently lectures and serves as a design critic nationally and internationally. Nina is formerly an adjunct faculty member at Carnegie Mellon's School of Architecture and an emeritus board member of the Landscape Architecture Foundation. Nina is currently the Co-Chair of the Harvard Graduate School of Design Alumni Council and a member of the Harvard Alumni Association Board.
- Oct 5, 20251h 6m
#52: Mele Estrella & Damara Vita Ganley - The Dance of Belonging
Episode SummaryDance artists Mele Estrella and Damara Vita Ganley join show host Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for an illuminating conversation that explores the rich terrain of their artistic work. Throughout this remarkable episode, we learn about Mele and Damara’s intensive creative ethics, efforts to engender trust, dedication to playfulness, and deep curiosity about the hidden stories around them. As dedicated movement artists, they are a powerful example of how attuning with one’s body, relationships, and the performance spaces acts as a cohesive force. Their craft and their commitment to the process of art is the foundation for their dance, and we are well-instructed by listening to them. In particular, we hear the fascinating backstory to their recent project, Flock. Flock intertwines animal and human migration stories with ecological awareness, showing the importance of belonging through the metaphor of “flocking.” The Dance of Belonging also explores their “Vertical Dance” Bandaloop Project. Using rope and harnesses to dance on the sides of massive objects, like granite faces or skyscrapers, this innovative dance form is a uniquely stunning display of how art can inspire wonder in all of us. Naturally, we discuss the teachings that come with encountering fear as part of the artistic path. We come to find how Mele and Damara use fear as a guide for deeper connection and support, finding confidence in creative belonging.Many thanks to Mele and Damara for helping us see Social Cohesion in action. Through their creative efforts and commitment to authentic connection, we find that social cohesion is not so much a product of external forces but instead begins with our connection to our own bodies and the group of people we create the story of our lives with.*****About Melecio “Mele” Estrella:Mele Estrella is a director, choreographer, and educator who has been with BANDALOOP since 2002. As Artistic Director, Mele brings 2 decades of practice weaving vertical dance, dance theater, somatic facilitation. and ecological belonging to BANDALOOP’s dance making. Mele’s work bridges the everyday personal/social body with the dream body, proposing expanded possibility and awe in our time of poly-crisis. Mele also co-directs Fog Beast, a cross-disciplinary group that affirms ecological connectedness in landscape, live arts and education. He is a longtime member of the Joe Goode Performance Group. Passionate about creating space and sustainability for artists, Mele serves on the advisory boards for the Artists Space Trust and for Arts in California State Parks. He was a Cultural Space Ambassador for the Community Arts Stabilization Trust (CAST), a Leadership Fellow for the Association of Performing Arts Professionals (APAP), and is currently a Lucas Artes Fellow at the Montalvo Center for the Arts.About Damara Vita Ganley:About Damara Vita Ganley:Damara Vita Ganley (she/they) is a movement artist and embodiment guide dedicated to alchemical creativity and connection practices. She meets her work in the world with deep humility, curiosity and a verdant lostness while drawing on extensive national and international creation, performance and teaching experience. She bows in profound gratitude for her long time creative collaborations with Melecio Estrella, Artistic Director of BANDALOOP which include Flock at The Momentary (2025), Somewhere to Oakland (2025), and serving as Associate Choreographer for Melecio in Vertical Choreography for Tina Landau and Idina Menzel’s new musical Redwood ( Broadway 2025), Downstream (2024) at Sonoma State, Resurgam (2023) at St. Paul’s Cathedral in London.Melecio and Damara also weave many years together in Fog Beast and Joe Goode Performance Group Following degrees in Anthropology, Critical Feminist Theory and Performance, Play and Design, Damara has had opportunities to perform with Mel Wong, Ellen Webb, Nancy Karp and Jo Kreiter/Flyaw
- Sep 5, 20251h 12m
#51: Chris Skidmore - The Astrology of Self-Love and Society
Episode SummaryIn episode #51, wisdom keeper and astrologer Chris Skidmore, joins the podcast for a profound conversation exploring the intersection of myth, astrology, and social cohesion. Chris and podcast host, Jef Szi, delve into the the 12 House System of Astrology as a "mythic language" and ancient teaching device that can provide guidance for exploring human nature and our social realities. After framing astrology not so much as a predictive tool or literal science, but rather as a rich, symbolic framework for understanding the human condition, Chris and Jef discuss the organization and significance of the 12 house system. Along the way they highlight various features of this "medicine wheel" as an archetypal ally for personal and social development. From there, the conversation homes in on the critical axis of the Fifth and Eleventh houses. Jef and Chris connect this house-system polarity to Jef's recent experience at the Grateful Dead's (Dead and Company) 60th anniversary shows in San Francisco. The performer-audience relationship become the metaphor they use to examine the dynamics between our "individual fire" (the Fifth House's focus on creative self-expression) to "collective connection" (the Eleventh House's domain of community and social contribution). Later on, Jef and Chris call upon a rarely mentioned Greek Olympian God, Hephaestus, to further illuminate to the 5th/11th House axis. Hephaestus is a figure of both woundedness and masterful craftsmanship and lore surrounding his disfigurements.Both The Dead and the Hephaestus become pertinent tales through which the various connections and tensions that occur between the creative soul and social responsibilities can be known—how our personal struggles and creative passions of doing what we love can be supported or troubled by mass, social pressures of our times. What Chris and Jef land on is these matters of love, creativity, shame, and community are not isolated, but are integral to how we navigate our human condition. Ultimately, there's a consequential dance taking place between a life that finds its real loves and pleasures and finding our place and contribution to society. In the beginning, middle, and end, The Astrology of Self-Love, & Society masterfully links personal emotional experiences to a broader, archetypal framework, offering a new way to view our creative lives and the pressures of mass society. I hope you enjoy this conversation and it’s implications as much as I did getting to interview Chris. About Chris Skidmore:Chris Skidmore is the host of On The Soul's Terms Podcast. He is also a practicing psychotherapist, astrologer, biodynamic cranial-sacral therapist who currently resides in Bali. Be sure to drop into Chris's podcast to follow his work on the 12 Houses, or call upon him for an astrology reading.*****
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About How Humans Work Podcast
Join Jef Szi—renaissance acupuncturist and insatiably curious show host—as he guides us into the labyrinths of human nature. Each season and each episode explores a central theme through conversations with guests from diverse traditions: thinkers like Robert Sapolsky, Deb Dana, and Michael Meade, alongside artists, activists, and explorers such as Luis J. Rodriguez, Orin Carpenter, and Dossie Easton.Together, we uncover personal stories and timeless wisdom—insights that stir, resonate, and inspire. Tune in and journey into the forces that shape who we are and how we live as we navigate the personal and the profound. Consider yourself invited to walk the winding path with the How Humans Work Podcast.
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