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by Human Risk
People are often described as the largest asset in most organisations. They are also the biggest single cause of risk. This podcast explores the topic of 'human risk', or "the risk of people doing things they shouldn't or not doing things they should", and examines how behavioural science can help us mitigate it. It also looks at 'human reward', or "how to get the most out of people". When we manage human risk, we often stifle human reward. Equally, when we unleash human reward, we often inadvertently increase human risk.To pitch guests please email guest@humanriskpodcast.com
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- 1 weeks ago1h 1m
Professor Alex Edmans on the Madness of Markets — Why Smart People Make Crazy Decisions
What can financial markets teach us about human behaviour? Why might the size of a CEO’s signature tell us something useful about the company they run? And why, even when smart investors know something is probably a bubble, might they keep investing anyway?Episode SummaryMy guest on this episode is Professor Alex Edmans, who returns to the show to discuss his new book, The Madness of Markets: Why Smart Investors Make Crazy Decisions and How to Exploit Them. As the title suggests, this is a book about financial markets. But our conversation is really about something much broader: human behaviour.Markets ought to be places where irrationality gets eliminated. They contain millions of participants, huge amounts of data and some of the smartest and best-paid people in the world. Yet people still overreact, follow the herd, become overconfident, refuse to admit mistakes and pay attention to things that shouldn't matter.Alex explains why that happens and what it can teach us about decision-making beyond investing.We explore why seemingly trivial information can move markets, the fine line between conviction and delusion, and why information that's hiding in plain sight can sometimes tell us more than sophisticated financial analysis. Alex share why corporate jets, unusual locations for shareholder meetings and even the size of a CEO's signature can offer clues about how a company is run.We also discuss information overload and our preference for things we can measure, why more disclosure isn't necessarily better disclosure, and how organisations can exploit the limits of human attention — including the strategic release of bad news on Friday afternoons.He also considers the impact of AI; machines can process enormous quantities of quantitative information without some of our human biases, but qualitative judgements about character, culture and trustworthiness may still require people. The future, Alex argues, isn't necessarily human or machine, but human and machine. Along the way, we explore bubbles, loss aversion, sunk costs, incentives in investment banking, financial literacy and regulation. And, ultimately, we return to a simple idea: markets behave irrationally because they're made up of human beings.Guest BiographyAlex Edmans is Professor of Finance at London Business School, an author, speaker and expert on behavioural finance, responsible business and corporate governance. Before entering academia, Alex worked in investment banking at Morgan Stanley. His research has been widely published, and he has won numerous awards for teaching. His previous books include Grow the Pie and May Contain Lies, the latter of which was the subject of his previous appearance on the podcast.LinksAlex Edmans' website: https://alexedmans.com/Alex Edmans on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aedmans/The Madness of Markets: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/821903/the-madness-of-markets-by-alex-edmans/Alex's previous appearance on the show — Professor Alex Edmans on Misinformation: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-alex-edmans-on-misinformation/AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction — what financial markets can teach us about human behaviour[00:01:45] Why Alex wrote The Madness of Markets and why markets are driven by psychology as well as economics[00:03:15] Markets as a laboratory for human behaviour — if millions of investors can get things wrong, what does that tell us about small groups making decisions?[00:04:40] Three types of mistakes: overreaction, underreaction and focusing on the wrong information[00:06:20] Loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy — why admitting a previous decision was wrong is so difficult[00:07:20] Combining memorable anecdotes with large-scale evidence, from Isaac Newton to market bubbles[00:08:45] Why highly intelligent and sophisticated investors still make systematic mistakes[00:10:40] Finding signals in unexpected places — why more data isn't necessarily better data[00:12:20] What corporate jets, remote shareholder meetings, CEO photographs and signature sizes might reveal about leadership[00:14:00] Information hiding in plain sight and how Alex's collection of unusual academic research became a book<br
- 1 weeks ago1h 23m
Lyndon Nelson & Gavin Stewart on Building Better Regulators
What if understanding regulation could help us spot when politicians are promising the impossible? Regulation sounds simple in theory. Something poses a risk, so we create rules and a regulator to control it. In practice, things get complicated very quickly. It's something we all benefit from, but equally can experience as redtape that prevents us from doing what we think we ought to be able to. On this episode, I'm exploring the inner workings of regulation; so whether you are a regulator, a compliance officer, work in a regulated industry or just a member of the public, this'll help you understand what is and isn't possible and why regulation can often seem ineffective or overbearing.Episode summaryMy guests on this episode are Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart, two highly experienced former financial regulators and authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible.Regulators are expected to protect consumers, maintain stability, encourage competition, support innovation and increasingly promote economic growth. The problem is that those objectives don't always point in the same direction. As Lyndon and Gavin explain, making trade-offs is part of regulation; pretending those trade-offs don't exist is where things become problematic.In our conversation, we explore the tension between rules and principles, why firms don't always respond to regulation in the way regulators expect, and how enforcement involves choices about which cases not to pursue. We also look at regulatory perimeters, the hidden costs of collecting data, and why having more information doesn't necessarily lead to better regulation.We also discuss AI and crypto, behavioural science, consumer protection, international regulation, the temptation to fight the last war, and why regulators need imagination as well as analysis. Ultimately, this is a conversation about regulation as a human system — shaped by incentives, politics, judgement, uncertainty and the behaviour of both regulators and the regulated.Guest biosLyndon Nelson spent 33 years at the Bank of England, much of it working in regulation, and ultimately became Deputy CEO of the Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA). Since leaving the Bank, he has worked with organisations including London Business School and the International Monetary Fund.Gavin Stewart began his career as a banking supervisor at the Bank of England before moving to the Financial Services Authority (FSA), where he held a variety of senior roles. He later became Chief Risk Officer at the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and subsequently worked in the private sector.Together, they are the authors of Building Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible, a book designed to help regulators — and those who interact with them — better understand the practical realities of regulation.LinksBuilding Better Regulators: The Art of the Impossible — book websiteThe Enforcement Game — try the exercise discussed in the episodeLyndon Nelson on LinkedInGavin Stewart on LinkedInAI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 Why regulation matters — and the trade-offs politicians often prefer not to acknowledge03:00 Meet Lyndon Nelson and Gavin Stewart05:00 Why they wrote the book — and why regulation is so badly understood07:00 The impossible mandates politicians give regulators10:00 Primary objectives, secondary objectives and the problem of “have regards”14:00 Why understanding regulatory failure doesn’t mean letting regulators off the hook18:00 Regulation as a fundamentally human and behavioural endeavour21:00 How firms respond to, interpret and game regulation22:00 Rules vs principles — the impossible search for certainty and flexibility28:00 Enforcement: what happens when regulators have more cases than resources31:00 Choosing whom to enforce against — severity, coverage and the “splash test”34:00 Who are rules really written for — the compliant, the gamers or the criminals?38:00 The regulatory perimeter — and why technology makes boundaries increasingly difficult44:00 BCCI, Barings, Wirecard and FTX: the challenge of regulating
- 2 weeks ago59 min
Roger Dooley on The Persuasion Engine
What if AI could help us understand people better, rather than simply replacing what humans do?Episode summaryHow can we use AI to become better at persuasion, communication and understanding human behaviour? My guest on this episode is Roger Dooley, author of The Persuasion Engine, a new book exploring what happens when behavioural science meets rapidly evolving technology.Roger argues that tools once available only to large organisations — from behavioural science expertise to eye-tracking — are becoming accessible to almost anyone. We explore how AI can act as a personal “nudge unit”, helping us apply ideas from behavioural science, test communications and understand how different audiences might respond.We also discuss why simply asking an AI for an answer isn't enough, how to push LLMs beyond predictable responses, and why human judgement remains essential.Roger introduces his idea of a “60-second audit” — using AI to identify how communications might be misunderstood or backfire before we send them.Along the way, we talk about Cialdini, cognitive biases, invisible calls-to-action, board papers, cultural disasters, AI collaborators, rally driving, long division and why the best analogy for AI might be a power tool rather than a replacement for human thinking.Guest bioRoger Dooley is an author, speaker and behavioural science expert who has spent years exploring a deceptively simple question: why do people do what they do?His latest book, The Persuasion Engine (Wiley, 2026), looks at what happens when behavioural science meets AI — and how tools once available only to big companies with big budgets are now becoming accessible to almost anyone.Roger is also the author of Friction, named a Top 3 Management Book by PwC’s strategy+business, and Brainfluence, which has been published in 11 languages.He brings an unusually practical perspective to the subject. Roger co-founded College Confidential and today he combines that entrepreneurial experience with behavioural science in his writing, speaking and teaching.He is a lecturer at McCombs Business School, a Forbes contributor and host of the Brainfluence podcast — and his work focuses on helping organisations understand people better, remove unnecessary friction and communicate in ways that actually work.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 — What if AI could be your behavioural scientist?05:00 — Cialdini, behavioural science and why people don’t know why they decide10:00 — Eye-tracking, attention and what people actually notice15:00 — Making important information more visible20:00 — Board reports, visual hierarchy and designing for human attention25:00 — Better prompting and getting AI beyond obvious answers30:00 — What happens to human expertise when AI knows the theory?35:00 — Reactance, unintended consequences and communications that backfire40:00 — Cultural context, reputation and Roger’s “60-second audit”45:00 — Using AI to become better at understanding other audiences50:00 — Roger’s lifelong interest in technology and what comes next55:00 — Cognitive offloading, critical judgement and rally driving57:00 — Why AI is best thought of as a power toolLinks to topics discussedThe Persuasion Engine — Roger’s latest book on how AI, behavioural science and neuromarketing tools are becoming accessible to organisations of all sizes.Roger's previous appearance on this podcast talking about Friction.RogerDooley.com — Roger’s website, including his books, articles, speaking and latest work.Roger on LinkedIn — where Roger regularly shares ideas on behavioural science, persuasion, AI and marketing.The Brainfluence Podcast — Roger’s podcast exploring behaviour, persuasion, neuroscience and business.Roger’s episode on The Persuasion Engine — his own introduction to the id
- 4 weeks ago1h 0m
Annie Wagstaff on The Joy of Curiosity
What’s the last thing you learned simply because you wanted to know?Episode summaryWhy do we feel the need to justify what we learn? My guest on this episode is Annie Wagstaff, a musician and composer whose career has taken her around the world touring with Take That and into writing music for advertising. But alongside her work in music, Annie has developed another passion: learning about whatever happens to make her curious.That could be vine tomatoes, animals, colour, knots, the human body, or simply something she notices while walking through a supermarket.Annie shares what she discovers on social media, not because the knowledge necessarily has an obvious purpose, but because she finds it interesting. And that raises a fascinating question: what happens to the natural curiosity we have as children as we become adults?In our conversation, we explore creativity and constraints, sonic branding, why children pick up stones while adults tell them to put them down, the pleasure of knowing a little about a lot, short attention spans and hyperfocus, authenticity in an age of AI, and why learning something without knowing what you’re going to do with it might be exactly the point.We also talk about Take That, vine tomatoes, staring at flowers, doomscrolling, notebooks, knots and sailing — the kind of eclectic mix that an episode about curiosity really ought to contain.Guest bioAnnie Wagstaff is a London-based guitarist, musician and composer.She has worked as a session musician, toured internationally with Take That, and composes music for advertising and other commercial projects.Earlier in her career, Annie also released her own music and built a large following online through her guitar playing.More recently, she has used her social channels to share the things she learns simply because they interest her — turning subjects ranging from science and animals to everyday observations into short, accessible explorations of curiosity.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 — Why curiosity matters05:00 — Touring the world with Take That10:00 — Writing music for advertising15:00 — Sonic branding and the power of sound17:00 — From “Guitar Girl” to curiosity creator22:00 — Vine tomatoes and unexpected rabbit holes25:00 — Why children are naturally curious34:00 — Flowers, distraction and noticing the world38:00 — Becoming a “knowledge butterfly”45:00 — Authenticity, social media and AI50:00 — Why does knowledge need a purpose?55:00 — Rediscovering curiosity — from five minutes to sailingLinksAnnie's Website: anniewagstaff.com including her booksTikTok: @annieplaysguitar on TikTokLinkedIn: Annie Wagstaff on LinkedInInstagram: @annieplaysguitar on InstagramYouTube: Annie Plays Guitar on YouTube
- Aug 15, 202651 min
Paul Craven on Living With Uncertainty
What happens when someone who spends his life thinking about risk, decision-making and human behaviour is confronted with an uncertainty he simply can’t control?Episode summaryMy guest is Paul Craven, a behavioural scientist, former investment professional, magician and keynote speaker, and one of my favourite people to talk to. When we sat down to record this episode, I noticed that Paul’s voice sounded different.His explanation — that he had recently been diagnosed with oral cancer — took our conversation in an unexpected and deeply personal direction.We explore what his experience has taught him about uncertainty, why he deliberately chose not to Google his diagnosis, and the difference between having information and having useful information.From there, we explore luck and skill, decision and gratitude journals, relationships versus transactions, the dangers of binary thinking, and why sometimes the best thing you can do when you’re in a bad mood is go for a walk in the rain. It’s a conversation about behavioural science, but also about perspective, paying attention and what we discover about ourselves when life doesn’t go according to plan.Key themesLiving with uncertainty and the psychological value of having a planWhy more information isn’t always better informationAI, search engines and our desire for certaintyNuance versus binary thinkingLuck, skill and decision journalsGratitude and paying attention to what mattersRelationships versus transactionsStorytelling, lived experience and different ways of seeing the worldChameleon Thinking and the value of changing perspectiveGuest Profile - Paul CravenPaul is a behavioural scientist, keynote speaker and former investment professional who brings together insights from psychology, behavioural science, finance and magic to explore how people really think and make decisions. LinksPaul Craven — speaker profile and booking enquiriesPaul Craven’s websiteIain McGilchristMartin ShawMark VernonPaul’s previous appearances on the Human Risk PodcastSolo: Paul Craven on Magic, Money & The MindWith Gerald Ashley: Gerald Ashley & Paul Craven on Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scam Artistsand Paul Craven & Gerald Ashley on Context, Consequences & ChangeabilityWith Rory Sutherland: Rory Sutherland & Paul Craven on Alchemy & Magic and Paul Craven & Rory Sutherland on Magic & AlchemyWith Rory Sutherland & Gerald Ashley at Abbey RoadTimestamped summary00:00 — Introduction01:35 — Paul’s diagnosis and living with uncertaintyPaul reveals his cancer diagnosis and reflects on why not knowing can sometimes be harder than receiving difficult news.07:00 — Medicine, empathy and different perspectivesWhat Paul’s experience of the NHS taught him about communication, multidisciplinary thinking and the importance of context.10:00 — Appreciating life, stories and walking in the rainFrom Iain McGilchrist and Martin Shaw to Rowan Williams’ wonderfully simple advice for dealing with a bad mood.17:10 — Reframing, Chameleon Thinking and “All shall be well”Why changing perspective can help us navigate difficult circumstances — including Paul’s own illness.25:45 — Why Paul chose not to Google his cancer<
- Aug 8, 20261h 4m
Benji Wilson on why we rate everything
Why do we rate everything and why do we do so on a scale of one to five stars? What happens when systems designed to help us make better choices start influencing our behaviour in ways we don’t necessarily notice?Episode SummaryMy guest is Benji Wilson, a journalist, TV critic and author of Rate This Book. Benji’s day job involves rating other people’s work, but when his children pointed out that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him, it prompted him to investigate the ratings culture that surrounds us. In our conversation, we explore where ratings came from, why the five-star system became dominant and the psychology that makes us pay attention to the opinions of people we’ve never met.We discuss social proof and the wisdom of crowds, why we often use ratings to avoid making bad decisions rather than to identify the very best option, and what happens when reviews are fake, manipulated or simply unfair.We also explore the consequences of moving from rating products and services to rating people, including Uber drivers, hospitality workers and doctors, and why a single negative review can have significant consequences.Benji also explains how ratings might have applications in places we wouldn’t necessarily expect, including workplace appraisals and even democracy, where alternative voting systems use ratings to allow people to express more nuanced preferences.And, appropriately for someone who has written a book called Rate This Book, we discuss what it feels like when the ratings are turned back on you — including why an anonymous three-star review might actually be more useful than a perfect five-star score.Guest ProfileBenji is a journalist, author and TV critic. His book, Rate This Book, explores how ratings and reviews came to dominate modern life, the psychology that makes them work and what happens when the systems designed to help us make choices begin shaping those choices themselves.LinksBenji's website — more about Benji and his work.Rate This Book — How Star Ratings Took Over the World, published by New Modern Arcade.Rate This Book audiobook — read by Benji Wilson.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 — Introduction: why we rate everything01:45 — Benji’s life as a TV critic and discovering that Rotten Tomatoes was also rating him.03:30 — Where ratings came from, from our instinct to rank things to the emergence of star ratings.08:30 — The psychology of ratings: prospect theory, avoiding bad decisions and why we rely on other people’s opinions.10:15 — Why five stars became the dominant rating system.16:00 — Experts versus crowds, social proof and why thousands of reviews can feel so persuasive.20:00 — Fake reviews, manipulated ratings and why critical thinking still matters.25:00 — What happens when we move from rating products to rating people — and the real-world consequences of negative reviews.29:30 — Reputation management, review blackmail and whether ratings platforms need greater regulation.33:30 — Ratings and democracy: could STAR voting offer a less binary way of choosing politicians?38:30 — Workplace appraisals, reciprocal ratings and what happens when a numerical score overwhelms everything else.43:00 — Uber and how our relationship with rating systems changes over time.44:30 — What it feels like to have Rate This Book rated — including Benji’s mysterious three-star review.47:30 — Why three stars may be our most natural — and least useful — rating.52:30 — How writing the book changed Benji’s own behaviour and why trusted personal recommendations can beat aggregated reviews.56:30 — Why companies really want our ratings and the commercial incentives behind endless requests for feedback.01:01:00 — Amazon Vine, gamification and how rating systems can influence the people doing the rating.01:02:30 — Where to find Benji and Rate This Book, plus the inevitable invitation to rate both the book and the podcast.
- Aug 2, 20261h 21m
Mark Heywood on The Stories We Tell About Ourselves
What parts of yourself have you learned to hide in order to be taken seriously? My guest on this episode is Mark Heywood, a friend of the show, returning guest and someone I've collaborated with on a number of projects. Episode Summary & Guest ProfileMark has spent more than twenty years working in crisis management and operational resilience, while simultaneously building a successful career as a bestselling novelist, screenwriter and, more recently, stand-up comedian.On the morning we recorded this conversation, Mark published an article marking his fifty-first birthday. In it, he reflected on the pressure many of us feel to present only one version of ourselves professionally, arguing that his creative and corporate lives were never really separate. As he puts it, they were 'not two jobs, but one obsession wearing two different lanyards.' That simple idea becomes the starting point for a much wider discussion about the stories we tell ourselves, and the stories organisations tell themselves.Along the way we explore:Why "stay in your lane" may say more about other people's expectations than your own potential.Why organisations often encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, while rewarding conformity.What interviews, dress codes and organisational culture reveal about human behaviour.Why stories often influence behaviour more effectively than rules, policies and frameworks.What films can teach us about operational resilience, cybersecurity and crisis management.Why the Titanic remains one of the most powerful lessons in organisational failure.How imagination is a strategic capability rather than a soft skill.Why thinking through "severe but plausible" scenarios requires organisations to become better storytellers.LinksMark's birthday article: "A Birthday Declaration from Someone Who Spent Over Twenty Years Pretending to Be Half of Himself" (LinkedIn)Mark's Behind The Spine podcastThe Writing SalonBehind The Spine podcastMark on LinkedInMark's previous appearances on the show talking about The Creative Industries under COVID, and Human Risk in the Creative IndustriesFilms, Stories & People MentionedDie Hard Apollo 13 The Martian The Odyssey (Christopher Nolan)Don't Look UpSnakes on a Plane Sharknado Noah's Ark RMS TitanicRachel Heyhoe Flint Jeremy King AI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Why do we hide parts of ourselves to be taken seriously?03:40 – Mark explains why he stopped separating his creative and corporate identities.08:00 – Which hobbies and outside interests are considered professionally acceptable—and why?10:30 – Job interviews, authenticit
- Jul 21, 202657 min
Gill Kernick on Grenfell - the disaster we still haven't learned from
When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?Episode SummaryReturning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.What you'll learn In this episode In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concludedThe shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the InquiryWhy disasters rarely have a single root causeThe hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn themThe importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulationWhy complexity requires different kinds of leadershipHow AI might help organisations learn lessons in real timeWhy hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters?02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry 06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons 27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long?33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point37:00 – Communities of grief and change 39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking 50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned" 59:00 – Final reflectionsLinksGill's website, The Grenfell EnquirerHer book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change'Gill's LinkedIn: Her previous show appearancesGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part OneGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part TwoTopics discussedGrenfell Tower Inquiry – Final ReportThe Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources)<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gill-kernick_grenfell-firesafety-healthandsafety-activity-7241834426874085376-RA9X?utm_source=cha
About The Human Risk Podcast
People are often described as the largest asset in most organisations. They are also the biggest single cause of risk. This podcast explores the topic of 'human risk', or "the risk of people doing things they shouldn't or not doing things they should", and examines how behavioural science can help us mitigate it. It also looks at 'human reward', or "how to get the most out of people". When we manage human risk, we often stifle human reward. Equally, when we unleash human reward, we often inadvertently increase human risk.To pitch guests please email guest@humanriskpodcast.com
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