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- 1 weeks ago1h 6m
Show, Don't Just Tell: Explaining For Understanding
Drew Perkins talks with James Moore, author of Explain Yourself: Master the Art of Explanation in the Age of AI, about how educators and communicators can effectively teach complex concepts. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. James, a former physics teacher and writer for the science-focused YouTube channel Veritasium, champions the core principle of "Show, Don't Just Tell". They unpack his powerful framework for clear explanation: SAD (Structure, Audience, Detail). The conversation tackles the tension between explicit instruction and inquiry, the role of cognitive load in learning, and why balancing technical accuracy with clarity is essential. Learn how starting with concrete examples (a bottom-up approach) and creating a curiosity gap can make the content click. Tune in for a masterclass on teaching, communication, and understanding in the age of AI. The discussion features James Moore, who shares his mission to help people explain complex concepts as clearly as possible. [0:05:07] The Motivation Behind Explain Yourself: James's transition from a classroom physics teacher to an online content creator required creating content that is understood the first time, leading to his obsession with clear explanation. [0:06:50] The Core Thesis: Show, Don't Tell: The most effective way to explain something is often not to tell, but to show through stories or examples that connect to biologically primary knowledge. [0:08:45] The SAD Framework: Explaining complex concepts is best approached through three lenses: Structure, Audience, and Detail. [0:16:22] Cognitive Load, Curiosity, and Schema Building: Curiosity acts as a motivator that helps ease the friction of cognitive load, with the goal of making content "click". [0:18:50] Expert vs. Learner Thinking: Experts store information top-down, but teaching should start bottom-up, using a series of examples to allow learners to infer the rule and build schema. Instructional Strategies & Audience [0:22:13] Checking for Understanding: Asking "Does that make sense?" is a poor proxy for comprehension. Use targeted application problems or specific questions instead. [0:28:18] Unpacking Structure (S): Start with a specific, concrete example to create context and an image in the learner's mind before introducing the abstract, general rule. [0:31:37] Unpacking Audience (A): This lens involves balancing technical accuracy with clarity. Use simple models, like the staircase analogy for quantum physics, that can be refined later to avoid losing the audience. [0:45:34] Unpacking Detail (D): The principle is "Less is More" to manage cognitive load. It also means atomizing complex concepts to avoid the "curse of knowledge," where experts assume their audience has already chunked the information. [0:53:28] The Narrative Structure: Using the "And, But, Therefore/So" story structure helps maintain audience attention by constantly building tension, conflict, and resolution. [0:58:20] Content Dictates Modality: The subject matter (e.g., learning a language or installing a car part) should drive the choice of teaching modality (video vs. text) rather than relying on learner preferences.
- 2 weeks ago1h 5m
Reimagining Our Pedagogy Conversations
Drew Perkins talks with education journalist and author Holly Korbey to explore the complex intersection of cognitive science and progressive pedagogy. While the "Reading Wars" often dominate headlines, Drew and Holly dig deeper into the underlying tensions between explicit, knowledge-rich instruction and the desire for student-led inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The heart of this conversation focuses on bridging the gap between human cognitive architecture and the ideals of inquiry-based learning. Holly and Drew discuss the "false dichotomy" that often pits these two approaches against each other. They explore how a deep foundation of background knowledge is actually the essential fuel that makes high-level inquiry possible. Holly shares insights into how schools are successfully integrating these worlds. They discuss "engineering the discovery," where teachers use explicit instruction to build the necessary schema, then step back to allow students to engage in meaningful inquiry. This episode serves as a roadmap for moving beyond tribalism and toward an integrated model of teaching. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Holly Korbey – From education reporting to researching civic education. [00:10:45] The Tension Between Science and Inquiry – Why cognitive science and progressive ideals are often viewed as being at odds. [00:16:30] Knowledge as the Engine of Inquiry – How building robust long-term memory allows for more complex questioning. [00:23:15] The "Both/And" Approach – Moving past tribal camps to find a balance between guidance and agency. [00:32:05] Schema Building in Early Years – Why content-rich instruction is vital for developing critical thinkers. [00:41:40] Navigating Controversial Topics – Using cognitive tools to facilitate deep inquiry into "hard history." [00:50:55] Reimagining Professional Learning – Shifting staff discussions from "tools" to pedagogical philosophy. [01:06:40] Practical Advice for Educators – How to integrate cognitive load principles into an inquiry classroom. [01:13:20] Closing Remarks – Where to follow Holly's work.
- 3 weeks ago1h 8m
Is The 'What & How' We Teach Math All Wrong?
Drew Perkins welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Ted Dintersmith.com Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You Film: multiplechoicefilm.com The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be (2018) Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing from his new book, Ted explores the "What and How" of teaching math. He argues that the current "What"—a heavy focus on symbolic manipulation and rote procedures—is largely obsolete. Regarding the "How," Ted shares inspiring examples of teachers who have moved toward Project-Based Learning kind of instruction. He describes classrooms where math is taught through real-world applications—like analyzing local economic trends—where learning happens through trial, error, and collaborative inquiry. By centering math on student agency, Ted argues we can move from "math trauma" to empowering students to solve complex, non-routine problems. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Ted Dintersmith – From venture capital to a 50-state tour investigating the future of education. [00:09:30] The Flaw in the System – Why our schools are designed for a world that no longer exists. [00:15:45] The Math Treadmill – Ted breaks down why our current math curriculum is a "filter" rather than a foundation. [00:22:10] The "What" of Math – Shifting from symbolic manipulation to data literacy and quantitative reasoning. [00:28:40] The "How" of Math – Using real-world problems to teach mathematical thinking instead of rote procedures. [00:35:15] The Impact of AI – How generative AI makes the "calculational" aspect of math a commodity. [00:43:05] Defining PEAK Learning – Breaking down Purpose, Essential Skills, Agency, and Knowledge. [00:52:20] Performance-Based Assessment – Moving toward portfolios and "defense of learning" models. [01:05:30] Advice for Parents – How to advocate for a more meaningful educational experience for your children. [01:12:45] Closing Remarks – Where to find Ted's books and follow his ongoing work in school reform.
- Apr 15, 202657 min
Biologically Primary vs. Secondary Learning With David Geary
Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review wherever you're listening. The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, and advanced mathematics—is a recent cultural invention that requires explicit instruction and sustained effort because our brains are not "wired" for it by default. Drew and David discuss the implications of this framework for modern classrooms, particularly why "discovery-based" learning models often struggle with secondary knowledge. Geary explains that while children naturally "play" to develop primary skills, the acquisition of secondary knowledge necessitates a different instructional architecture that respects the limits of working memory and the necessity of direct guidance. Finally, they explore the role of motivation and interest in learning. Geary highlights that while students are naturally motivated to learn primary skills, teachers must often "engineer" interest for secondary knowledge. The episode concludes with reflections on the "curse of knowledge" for experts and how an evolutionary lens can help educators better understand the struggle their students face when encountering abstract, non-intuitive academic content. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:12] Introduction to David Geary – Exploring his background in developmental and evolutionary psychology. [00:08:45] Defining Biologically Primary Knowledge – The skills we are born to learn, from language to social intuition. [00:12:30] Defining Biologically Secondary Knowledge – Why reading, writing, and math are "unnatural" and require schools. [00:18:15] The Role of Play – Distinguishing between play as a primary learning mechanism and its limitations for academic subjects. [00:25:50] Working Memory and Cognitive Load – How secondary knowledge strains our evolved cognitive architecture. [00:33:10] The Problem with Discovery Learning – Why students cannot simply "instinctively" find their way to complex secondary truths. [00:41:45] Engineering Interest – Strategies for motivating students to engage with content they aren't evolutionarily predisposed to care about. [00:52:20] The "Curse of Knowledge" – Why experts struggle to remember what it's like to be a novice learner. [01:05:30] Evolutionary Perspectives on Sex Differences – A brief look at Geary's research on developmental variations. [01:14:15] Closing Remarks – Where to find more of David Geary's work and upcoming publications.
- Apr 1, 20261h 17m
School Choice, Competition vs. Spending
Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases. Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens. [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program. [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students. [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases. [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality. [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators. [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction. [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration. [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models. [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency. [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.
- Mar 27, 20261h 12m
Moving From Formative Assessment To Action
Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes. Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation. [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days. [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools. [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process. [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck. [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes. [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls. [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques. [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action. [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design. [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".
- Feb 25, 20261h 13m
Engineering the Aha, What's Missing From Inquiry
Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks. A central theme of the conversation is the critical role of fluency. Brendan argues that a lack of fluency in "tool skills"—like basic math facts or decoding—acts like "climbing a mountain with a bag of bricks on your back". By implementing just five minutes of daily, timed fluency practice, teachers can free up cognitive space for students to engage in higher-order thinking and discovery. Finally, Drew and Brendan discuss the "curse of knowledge" and why many inquiry-based approaches fail when they lack intentional design. They explore how "engineering the aha moment" requires a deep understanding of what students already know and the strategic fading of support as accuracy increases. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:15] Brendan's Background – From high school PE teacher and aspiring rugby pro to primary school educator. [00:12:06] The Shift in Thinking – Moving from project-based learning to recognizing the need for foundational knowledge in young learners. [00:17:29] Discovering the Science of Reading – Key resources and mentors that transformed Brendan's approach to literacy. [00:23:58] The Instructional Hierarchy – Breaking down the framework of acquisition, fluency, generalization, and adaptation. [00:33:32] Working Memory and Subskills – Why students struggle with multi-step problems when they lack fluency in basic components. [00:46:54] Tool, Component, and Composite Skills – Defining the building blocks of mastery. [01:01:52] Inquiry Before Explicit Instruction – Drew discusses using "framing questions" to create a "need to know". [01:06:41] The Curse of Knowledge – Why teachers struggle to adopt a novice perspective when designing tasks. [01:11:50] Behavior Analysis and Scaffolding – The importance of "contingency reduction" and fading prompts based on student accuracy. [01:16:50] Final Advice – Focus on small, incremental improvements rather than mastering everything at once.
- Feb 18, 20261h 20m
John Sweller On The Foundations And Future Of Cognitive Load Theory
Drew Perkins speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening. The conversation begins with Sweller's essential distinction between biologically primary knowledge (skills like speech that we evolve to acquire naturally) and biologically secondary knowledge (academic subjects like reading and math that require explicit instruction). Sweller argues that because schools primarily deal with secondary knowledge, the limitations of working memory must be the starting point for any instructional design. A major theme of the episode is the concept of element interactivity. Sweller clarifies a common point of contention: while inquiry-based learning can be acceptable for low-complexity information, it is "catastrophic" for high-element interactivity content where working memory is easily overwhelmed. The guests also explore the "computational advantage" of diagrams, explaining how visual models can offload cognitive strain and make complex syntax more accessible to learners. Finally, the group discusses the "knowledge-rich" foundation required for higher-order thinking. Contrary to the idea that critical thinking is a generic skill to be practiced in a vacuum, Sweller and Caviglioli emphasize that creativity and analysis are only possible when a deep knowledge base is firmly established in long-term memory. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:26] Introduction to Human Cognitive Architecture – Why understanding how we learn is the necessary foundation for Cognitive Load Theory. [00:08:48] Primary vs. Secondary Knowledge – Defining why some skills are effortless while academic knowledge requires explicit teaching. [00:14:05] The Limits of Working Memory – Examining the "seven-item" rule and the 18-second duration of novel information. [00:17:44] The Power of Long-Term Memory – How stored knowledge transforms working memory from limited to virtually infinite. [00:32:56] Writing as External Symbolic Storage – Oliver Caviglioli on how writing allowed humanity to conquer transient information. [00:36:56] The Worked Example Effect – Why studying a solution is often more effective than solving the problem yourself. [00:43:33] The Transient Information Effect – The danger of "moving" information in technology and sports coaching. [00:51:46] Element Interactivity – The crucial distinction between low and high complexity that dictates teaching methods. [00:59:10] The Computational Advantage of Diagrams – Why diagrams are more than just "decorative" and how they reduce cognitive load. [01:08:04] Inquiry vs. Explicit Instruction – Sweller's warning on starting with inquiry for high-element interactivity tasks. [01:10:50] Knowledge as the Base for Critical Thinking
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