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Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy: Daily Summaries Delivered
by David Burns, MD
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- 1 weeks ago37 min
501: Ask David: Help! Relentless Anger–Nothing Works! Is Freedom of Speech a "Need?" Or "Want?"
Ask David: Help! Relentless Anger! Nothing Works! Is Freedom of Speech a "Need?" Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Dr. Rhonda Barovsky Today I am thrilled to be working with our new host for the Feeling Good Podcast, Mr. Kevin Cornelius, a dear friend and brilliant therapist who works as a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. Today, Keven starts a multi-podcast trial as our new host to find out how he likes the new position, and how you, are audience feel. It will be hard for anyone to fill Rhonda's shoes, of course, but Kevin brings his own combination of warmth, charm, and brilliance to the show. I hope you like the new show! Let us know what you think! Today, we address three questions: Question #1: How do you deal with a "relentlessly angry" patient who does not respond to the five secrets of effective communication? Question #2: How can I deal with a patient who may have been triggered by my phone call when I had to change l a scheduled session? Question #3: Zach asks if freedom of speech is a "want" or a "need." Hi David and Kevin: I have cleared my schedule so I can be there to support Kevin in his first podcast,. I have two questions for the Ask David podcast: 1.) How do you handle a "relentlessly angry" patient? By that I mean, one of your patient's is upset with you, you respond with a skillful 5-secrets response and yet they continue being angry with you, even screaming at you for 30 minutes. David's comment: The discussion of this excellent question got a little heated, as David pointed out that in his experience, when people say "I tried the Five Secrets and it didn't work," 100% of the time they did not actually do a skillful job with the Five Secrets. David asked for the familiar format: What is ONE thing the (angry) patient said, and what, EXACTLY, did you say next? Put this on a Relationship Journal and you will be able to spot your errors right away. David reports that this format does tend to anger people who don't want to have to examine their own role in a relationship problem. The idea that they may have botched the Five Secrets appears to be deeply disturbing, hence the heated discussion today. 2.) How do you handle what is happening "in the here and now" immediate moment, the here and now, with your patient? For example, I had to change an appointment with a patient, she became really angry, and then cancelled her next appointment. One of my colleagues suggested that my patient might have felt triggered when I cancelled the appointment. My colleague suggested I talk to her about what happened when I asked her to change the appointment because if she felt abandoned by me she might have the same experience with other people. How would I bring up what is happening in our relationship with my patient, that they may also experience in other relationships? I could probably think of a few more, Rhonda 3) Dear Dr. Burns, Hello. I hope this message finds you well. I'm writing to ask you a question that has been on my mind. You have mentioned before that freedom of speech is an important part of your value system. I'm curious about how you would frame it psychologically: do you see freedom of speech more as a want, or as a need? Relatedly, for people living in non-democratic countries, do you think it is still possible to achieve a high level of happiness without freedom of speech? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts when you have the time. Thank you very much for your work and for sharing your perspectives. Warm regards, Zack David's Comme
- 2 weeks ago1h 12m
500: Celebrating Rhonda's Triumphant Leadership - and a Sad Goodbye
500: Celebrating Rhonda's Triumphant Leadership - and a Sad Goodbye In this very special 500th episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, Matt May, Jill Levitt and I pause to celebrate a remarkable milestone, our 500th episode of the Feeling Good podcast, and to honor someone who has been at the heart of it for the past 273 episodes: Rhonda Barovsky Since stepping into the role of host, Rhonda has brought warmth, wisdom, curiosity, and deep compassion to every conversation. Her presence has helped shape the podcast into a trusted space for learning, healing, personal growth, and building the TEAM community. Week after week, she has guided thoughtful discussions on mood, relationships, anxiety, depression, and the many challenges of being human—with authenticity and grace. Rhonda's unique ability to ask meaningful questions, highlight practical tools, and connect with listeners has made an immeasurable impact. Whether exploring TEAM CBT techniques or sharing personal reflections, she has helped countless listeners feel seen, understood, and empowered. As Rhonda steps down from her role as host, this episode is dedicated to celebrating her contributions and expressing deep gratitude for all she has given to this community. In this episode, we: Reflect on Rhonda's journey with the podcast and how she became such an integral part of its success Highlight memorable moments and favorite episodes from her time as host Share behind-the-scenes stories and personal reflections Express appreciation from listeners and the broader Feeling Good community This is not goodbye—it's a transition. Rhonda leaves behind a powerful legacy and a strong foundation that will continue to inspire future episodes and listeners around the world. Thank you, Rhonda, for your dedication, your heart, and your unwavering commitment to helping people feel better. And to our listeners: thank you for being part of these 500 episodes. We're so glad you're here—and we're excited for what comes next as Kevin Cornelius steps into the role of the Feeling Good Podcast host. Welcome, Kevin! Warmly, David, Rhonda, Matt and Jill
- 3 weeks ago1h 50m
499: Live Work with Hiral, Part 2 of 2
Inside the Therapy Room: A Live TEAM CBT Session with Hiral-- The Exciting Conclusion! Part 2 of 2 Overview What an incredible day. David and I had the privilege of working with Hiral, a young mother from India who was drowning in perfectionism, self-criticism, and the crushing weight of trying to be everything to everyone. Over the course of about two hours, we watched her transform from someone scoring 100% on depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, and hopelessness to feeling peaceful, relaxed, and genuinely joyful—with most scores dropping to zero. This wasn't magic. It was TEAM-CBT done systematically, with measurement, genuine empathy, paradoxical agenda setting, and powerful cognitive techniques. And yes, Hiral did most of the heavy lifting herself once we got out of her way. For those of you who attended or are reading this summary, I want to walk you through what happened—not just what we did, but why it worked. Because here's the thing: this will look deceptively simple. That's the trap. TEAM-CBT is among the hardest therapeutic approaches to master, precisely because each step exists on multiple levels and requires you to change before your patients can change. Let's dig in. The Setup: Who Was Hiral? Hiral is a mother of an almost-four-year-old son, living in a joint family in Gujarat, India, with her husband and in-laws. She's also studying to become a TEAM-CBT therapist herself, preparing for her Level 3 certification exam. But beneath these roles, Hiral was suffering: Feeling like a failure as a mother Constant self-criticism and perfectionism Trapped in a rigid family environment with little emotional support Isolated from friends, her own parents, and the vibrant life she once had Plagued by guilt, shame, anxiety, and hopelessness—all at 100% Sound familiar? I'll bet many of you have worked with someone like Hiral. Or maybe you've been Hiral at some point in your life. I know I have. T = Testing: The Emotional X-Ray Before we even said hello to Hiral, she completed the Brief Mood Survey—David's ultra-reliable, ultra-short measures of depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, and relationship satisfaction right now, in this moment. Her scores were staggering: Depression: 11/20 (moderate, with "sad," "down," and "hopeless" all elevated) Anxiety: 14/20 (moderate to severe) Anger: 14/20 (same intensity as anxiety) Happiness: 8/20 (very low) Relationship Satisfaction: 10/30 (significant dissatisfaction with her husband) Why this matters: Most therapists never measure how their patients feel. They think they know, but research shows therapist accuracy is around 3-10% on depression, suicidality, anxiety, and anger. Zero percent on suicidal urges. Think about that. Without measurement, you're flying blind. With it, you have an emotional X-ray that shows you exactly where the patient is hurting—and later, exactly how much you've helped (or haven't). TEAM-CBT Pearl: Testing isn't optional. It's the foundation. Measure at the start of every session, and measure again at the end. If you're scared to see the results, that's your ego talking. E = Empathy: The Zero Technique For the first 30-40 minutes, David and I did... nothing. Well, not nothing—we listened. We used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication: <o
- 4 weeks ago1h 9m
498: Live Work with Hiral, Part 1 of 2
Inside the Therapy Room: A Live TEAM CBT Session with Hiral Part 1 of 2 Overview What an incredible day. David and I had the privilege of working with Hiral, a young mother from India who was drowning in perfectionism, self-criticism, and the crushing weight of trying to be everything to everyone. Over the course of about two hours, we watched her transform from someone scoring 100% on depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, and hopelessness to feeling peaceful, relaxed, and genuinely joyful—with most scores dropping to zero. This wasn't magic. It was TEAM-CBT done systematically, with measurement, genuine empathy, paradoxical agenda setting, and powerful cognitive techniques. And yes, Hiral did most of the heavy lifting herself once we got out of her way. For those of you who attended or are reading this summary, I want to walk you through what happened—not just what we did, but why it worked. Because here's the thing: this will look deceptively simple. That's the trap. TEAM-CBT is among the hardest therapeutic approaches to master, precisely because each step exists on multiple levels and requires you to change before your patients can change. Let's dig in. The Setup: Who Was Hiral? Hiral is a mother of an almost-four-year-old son, living in a joint family in Gujarat, India, with her husband and in-laws. She's also studying to become a TEAM-CBT therapist herself, preparing for her Level 3 certification exam. But beneath these roles, Hiral was suffering: Feeling like a failure as a mother Constant self-criticism and perfectionism Trapped in a rigid family environment with little emotional support Isolated from friends, her own parents, and the vibrant life she once had Plagued by guilt, shame, anxiety, and hopelessness—all at 100% Sound familiar? I'll bet many of you have worked with someone like Hiral. Or maybe you've been Hiral at some point in your life. I know I have. T = Testing: The Emotional X-Ray Before we even said hello to Hiral, she completed the Brief Mood Survey—David's ultra-reliable, ultra-short measures of depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, and relationship satisfaction right now, in this moment. Her scores were staggering: Depression: 11/20 (moderate, with "sad," "down," and "hopeless" all elevated) Anxiety: 14/20 (moderate to severe) Anger: 14/20 (same intensity as anxiety) Happiness: 8/20 (very low) Relationship Satisfaction: 10/30 (significant dissatisfaction with her husband) Why this matters: Most therapists never measure how their patients feel. They think they know, but research shows therapist accuracy is around 3-10% on depression, suicidality, anxiety, and anger. Zero percent on suicidal urges. Think about that. Without measurement, you're flying blind. With it, you have an emotional X-ray that shows you exactly where the patient is hurting—and later, exactly how much you've helped (or haven't). TEAM-CBT Pearl: Testing isn't optional. It's the foundation. Measure at the start of every session, and measure again at the end. If you're scared to see the results, that's your ego talking. E = Empathy: The Zero Technique For the first 30-40 minutes, David and I did... nothing. Well, not nothing—we listened. We used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication: <span style="color: #00000
- Apr 13, 202655 min
497: Why Isn't TEAM More Popular?
Why Isn't TEAM More Popular? Why Do So Many Therapists Resist TEAM CBT? Featuring Matt May, MD Why has the therapeutic community been so resistant to TEAM? This topic has been a concern to me or many years. To be honest, it isn't new. From the very start of cognitive therapy, when I was first learning it, I began modifying it to make it more dynamic, powerful, and effective. But to be honest, I ran into a small (at the time) of Beck loyalists who branded me as an "outsider," something Beck also did when my book, Feeling Good, began to sell and gain popularity. This saddened and frustrated me, and still does, but it had some great spin-off. On my own, my ideas and approaches grew rapidly, and there was no scarcity of young therapists who wanted to work with me. Below, you will ready Matt's take on why TEAM CBT has not caught on better, followed by my own thoughts. So read, and enjoy, and feel free to share your own thinking on this topic! On the live podcast, you will hear our lively discussion with our beloved and brilliant host, Rhonda! Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David Matt's take: Hi David, I'm excited to discuss this topic! Also, I agree we would be hard-pressed to cover it in an hour, which I believe is the goal for the podcast. So, why isn't TEAM isn't more popular? My short answer is that TEAM isn't more popular because many therapists don't want to learn it. Those reasons will vary from one person to another and relate to concepts in the model, itself, like 'process resistance' and 'outcome resistance'. While biological factors, like deficits in cognitive flexibility and neuroplasticity, the 'primacy effect' and age-related changes in the brain, combined with the complexity of the TEAM model, will make it near-impossible for some folks to learn it, these barriers are hard to address with our current technology For the purpose of this conversation, it probably makes more sense to consider the psychological barriers therapists have to adopting a model that is scientifically proven to be superior to other approaches. As a proponent of TEAM and an instructor, I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong, in presenting the model and how to get more people excited about learning it. While more research would help us see the problem more clearly, here are some factors that likely play a role: It seems humans have a hard time adopting new truths, regardless of the field being considered. I believe it was Schopenhauer who said all new truths go through three phases on the way to acceptance: People will ridicule it, violently oppose it, then say they knew it all along as self-evident! One cause of this is something called the 'primacy effect'. People preferentially retain the first version of a story they hear. If that information is corrected, later, they will continue to believe the first version they heard. Biological Factors play a role in learning, including genetics, aging, illness and toxic exposure. 'Switching gears', mentally, is more challenging in people with Schizophrenia and their first-degree relatives, for example. We know that neuroplasticity is greatest in our youth and declines over our lifespan. Hence the importance of early education and attending to our overall health, habits, nutrition and medical care. Socioeconomic and Cultural factors certainly play a role. This is well documented in the book, 'The Emperor's New Drugs', showing how marketing prevailed over science in promoting "antidepressants". Many therapists in training tell me, 'oh, they wouldn't let me use a measurement tool where I work'. Lack of 'Critical Thinking'. What people believe often has nothing to do with what is evidence-based or logical. Many people reject global warming despite the evidence and prefer to believe in conspiracy theories. We tend to preferentially believe what someone says if we feel a kinship or loyalty to that person or view them as an 'expert'. People might believe RFK Jr. when he says immuniz
- Apr 6, 202636 min
496: Should Therapists Express Their Feelings? Freud's Huge Error! Featuring Matt May, MD
Should Therapists Express Their Feelings? Freud's Huge Error! Featuring Matt May, MD Today we touch base on a really important and highly controversial question: Should therapists express their feelings? Or remain blank slates, as Freud so strongly recommended. We begin with a scholarly and really interesting (oxymoron?) piece that Matt wrote about Freud's own fear of sharing his feelings, and how that led to the huge mistake called psychoanalysis. At the end of this piece, I will briefly summarize the podcast. Matt's piece here Matt began by describing a fascinating case of a woman who had a functional neurological disorder. She appeared, in other words, to be unable to walk, but her walking problem was entirely caused by her mind. Often this type of problem is due to the "Hidden Emotion" phenomenon, where the patient is hiding some powerful feeling—from themselves and others—and then that feeling comes out indirectly, as some form of anxiety (very common) or even as a neurological problem, such as apparent paralysis in a limb. Matt, can you briefly summarize your thinking on how her symptoms may have been due to suppressed anger? During the session, the concept of anger came up, and the husband became agitated, and started pounding angrily on the desk. Clearly, of course, his wife was also terrified of him, one of the key dynamics in their dysfunctional marriage. Matt was scared, and decided to say, "I feel scared right now." The man calmed down instantly. She, too, had been afraid of expressing her feelings. Matt and Rhonda talked about effective and ineffective ways of expressing your feelings. Like everything else in the universe, "I Feel" statements are a two-edged sword. What Matt said—"I feel scared"—was a human statement of vulnerability that did not threaten this many in any way. Matt's humanness allowed him to lower his defenses and open up as well. But saying, "I feel controlled," is actually a hidden criticism of the other person, and it will nearly always trigger more aggression and anger. They also discussed setting boundaries, another highly controversial topic, because much of the time, when therapists (or anyone) attempt to set boundaries, it comes across as an attempt to control the other person, to tell them what they can and cannot do, and that has a high probability of triggering more anger, and is an invitation to violate the annoying "limit" you are trying to set. Matt described a common and frustrating dynamic: a woman who kept "forgetting" to do her psychotherapy homework, and instead kept chasing a man who treated her badly. Of course, her behavior caused him to become even more aggressive and abusive. Matt: what was your point here? I didn't get it in my notes. Any help appreciated! You can be brief, as many words tends to intimidate me. In contrast, a statement like "I'm feeling hurt right now," is vastly less powerful, since it is simply a gentle, non-aggressive way, of showing how you feel. But by the same token, it is often vastly more powerful than attempts to set limits. These are complicated topics, easily misunderstood. For more information, check out my book Feeling Good Together. Warmly, David, Rhonda and Matt
- Mar 31, 20264 min
Exciting All-New Workshop on Core Beliefs (for Therapists)
Hello! Dr. Jill Levitt and I have an amazing full-day CE workshop on changing core beliefs coming up in a few weeks. If you've ever struggled with Perfectionism, Perceived Perfectionism, or the Love, Achievement, or Approval Addictions, you're going to love this all-new workshop called The Deeper Dimension in CBT. Sign up now at CBT-Workshop.com. 📅 Friday, April 24, 2026 🕛 8:30 AM – 4:30 PM PT CE Workshop for Therapists $195 Register Here: CBT-Workshop.com This workshop will include new teaching and treatment techniques, and we'll go much further than any previous presentations on Core Beliefs. Learning therapy is much like learning to ride a bicycle. You've got to get on and ride. Book learning won't help. That's why you'll work through your own Self-Defeating Beliefs during this highly interactive workshop. As you change, the tools for helping your clients will become crystal clear. We'll also answer the question: where do you go next once you decide to give up your Self-Defeating Beliefs? You'll walk away from this amazing workshop with concrete, easy-to-use tools you can apply in your very next therapy session and in your life as well. You'll also experience a profound and exciting shift in your personal philosophy.
- Mar 30, 20261h 14m
495: Stop Helping! Here's How. Featuring Thai-An Truong on Codependency
#495 Stop Helping! Here's How. Featuring Thai-An Truong on Codependency Thai-An Truong, LPC, LADC is a Certified TEAM-CBT Trainer, Level 5 and loves sharing tools and processes to help other therapists feel more confident, effective, and joyful in their work with their clients. In her private practice in Oklahoma, she is passionate about helping people heal from past trauma and OCD. She also has a special interest in helping her clients improve their relationships and overall connection with their partners and loved ones. We often hear the word, co-dependency thrown around. Today's podcast will be unique: you'll hear a totally brilliant and lucid explanation of how to treat it within the TEAM CBT model. It will be explained and illustrated with role-playing demonstrations by Rhonda and Thai-An. These demonstrations are fantastic! You'll love them! But let's start with what codependency is. I'll give you my take on it first, as my understanding has been based on observation. I see it as the compulsive urge to help another person who appears to be hurting or struggling. Well, that's nothing wrong with that, for sure! But where it gets yucky is where there is an ongoing pattern of helping, followed by stuckness on the part of the person who is hurting, ending up with both parties feeling frustrated and angry. We've talked about this general topic a great deal on the show, and in fact, TEAM CBT emerged as a radical alternative to the compulsive, codependent "helping" we often see in the community of mental health professionals. And we've seen this too, among parents and their children. Rhonda and I have done many podcasts on the topic of "How to Help and How NOT to Help," (for example, #164: https://feelinggood.com/2019/10/28/164-how-to-help-and-how-not-to-help/). And we've done many, including a great recent podcast with Dr. Taylor Chesney, on how parents can talk to teens and children without trying to control or scold them—by forming a warm and respectful relationship, using the Five Secrets. According to a Google search, codependency involves "excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, often characterized by neglecting one's own needs. The four main types of codependency are the Caretaker, Enabler, Controller, and Adjuster. These roles represent different ways individuals, often with low self-esteem, sacrifice their well-being to manage relationships." To get things started, Rhonda and Thai-An discuss he various definitions and meanings of co-dependency. Thai-An described an attractive woman she treated who ended up with an alcoholic man who gave her very little in terms of healthy emotional support or love. But she told herself, "He's the only one who's there for me. , , I won't be able to find anyone else." There's also a strong dimension of "I NEED to fix this person," as opposed to asking if they need help, and deciding whether you can actually meet their need. They also pointed out, with example, that "throwing help at people" (as I call it) actually forces them to resist. They talked about the shame involved in codependency, and then illustrated Option B: TEAM -CBT, where empathy is always a crucially important first step. Then you can move to the Triple Paradox, to help the codependent patient illuminate three crucial motivational pieces: Column 1: The positive rewards of trying to "help" this person. Column 2: The downside of changing and giving up this pattern. Column 3: What your codependency shows about you and your core values as a human being that's positive and awesome. <span style="col
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About Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
This podcast features David D. Burns MD, author of "Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy," describing powerful new techniques to overcome depression and anxiety and develop greater joy and self-esteem. For therapists and the general public alike!
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