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by Pat Mesiti
We interview the most successful, best-selling mindset, life coach, and business authors to get their best secrets about being healthy, wealthy, and wise. They are co-authors with Pat Mesiti and David Cavanagh.
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Finance expert Elizabeth Lampasona shares how a devastating series of events wiped out the property portfolio she and her husband had built as their retirement plan, and how she rebuilt both her finances and her identity from the ground up. Drawing on three decades in banking, lending, and finance broking, she explains why debt is not a moral failure, but often the result of life circumstances colliding with unseen risk. Elizabeth Lampasona breaks down the emotional realities of money: shame, guilt, and the crushing feeling of having “let the family down,” and shows why acknowledging you’re in trouble is the non‑negotiable first step to recovery. She walks through practical strategies for escaping the “debt spiral” using small, achievable wins, selling underperforming assets, restructuring loans, and separating long-term fixes from quick wins. Along the way, she reveals how she guided all three of her sons into owning their homes outright in their 30s, not through family wealth, but through disciplined saving, smart investing, and clear financial goals. In this conversation, Elizabeth Lampasona also explores the mindset side of money: how childhood beliefs and “we’ll never get ahead” stories quietly cap your financial potential. Mentored by Pat Mesiti, she learned to identify and replace limiting beliefs, surround herself with ambitious, growth‑minded people, and use setbacks as fuel for a stronger comeback. She outlines five big lessons from her journey: debt without shame, managing risk, evolving financial plans, building resilience in dark seasons, and understanding that your comeback can be greater than your setback. Elizabeth Lampasona also discusses returning to the finance industry in her 50s, adapting to massive shifts in legislation, compliance, and technology and why brokers who ignore AI and new tools will be left behind. For anyone feeling behind, trapped in debt, or defeated by past mistakes, her core message is clear: your starting point does not define your destination, financial freedom is built on decisions, discipline, and direction that anyone can learn. Elizabeth Lampasona is a finance broker and money mentor who specializes in helping people break free from the debt spiral and rebuild their financial lives with confidence. After losing the property portfolio that was meant to fund her retirement, Elizabeth Lampasona used her three decades in banking, lending, and broking to engineer her own comeback then turned that hard-won experience into a roadmap for others. She uniquely blends technical finance expertise with deep emotional insight into shame, guilt, and fear around money. Elizabeth Lampasona doesn’t just restructure loans; she rewires mindsets, proving that with the right strategy, discipline, and guidance, financial freedom is possible at any age. Resources: Visit Asona Finance and Schedule a Consultation with Elizabeth Lampasona Today The Freedom Blueprint on Amazon Talking Points: [0:00] Meet Finance Broker & Debt-Recovery Mentor Elizabeth Lampasona [0:02] What a Finance Broker Really Does (And Why Banks Don’t Tell You) [0:03] The Debt Spiral: How Small Missteps Turn Into Crushing Financial Pressure [0:04] “I Felt Like a Failure”: The Hidden Shame and Guilt Behind Money Problems [0:05] Step One Out of Debt: Admitting You’re in Trouble and Owning Your Choices [0:07] Why You Can’t Fix Your Whole Financial Mess at Once (And What to Do Instead) [0:08] When Investment Properties Crash: Negative Equity, Floods, and Forced Sales [0:11] Losing Your Retirement in Your 50s: Rebuilding When the Plan Implodes [0:13] How Elizabeth Helped Three Sons Become Mortgage-Free Homeowners in Their 30s [0:14] The Mindset Trap: “People Like Us Will Never Be Financially Free” [0:16] Mentored by Pat Mesiti: Breaking Limiting Beliefs About Wealth and Success [0:19] “No One Is Coming to Save You”: Why You Must Create Your Own Financial Breakthrough [0:20] Returning to Finance in Her 50s: New Laws, New Tech, and Refusing to Be Left Behind [0:21] Why Brokers MUST E
Veteran telecommunications and public safety specialist Robert Hockings reveals why so many “modern” training programs quietly sabotage performance, especially in high-stakes environments like law enforcement, firefighting, ambulance services, and rail operations. Drawing on 34 years of experience, he explains how poorly designed technology rollouts and one-size-fits-all training can turn highly capable professionals into confused, hesitant operators at the exact moment they need to act intuitively. Robert Hockings shares real-world stories, including a multi-million dollar radio upgrade for motorcycle police that unintentionally made communication slower and less safe by ignoring how officers actually worked. He argues that most organizations treat training as a cost instead of an investment, rushing people through “turn up and throw up” slide decks that look good on paper but fail in the field. His core message: if you don’t start with the user’s intuitive behavior, environment, and real-world pressures, you’re building failure into your change project from day one. In this conversation, Robert Hockings breaks down a practical, repeatable approach to change: promise, listen, deliver, grow. He shows how sitting beside operators on night shifts, watching their body movements, ergonomics, and communication patterns can literally be the difference between life and death in freight yards, ports, and emergency response. By tailoring training to people’s backgrounds whether farmers becoming volunteer firefighters or city professionals moving into rural brigades he’s dramatically improved skill retention and reduced churn. Robert Hockings emphasizes training to outcomes, not time: the goal isn’t to “finish the slides” but to ensure people can safely and confidently use new systems when real work starts. For leaders, managers, trainers, and technology suppliers, his approach offers a roadmap to cut rework, avoid resistance, and turn every implementation into a genuine capability upgrade instead of an expensive headache. With 34 years in telecommunications and over three decades supporting public safety, Robert Hockings specializes in fixing what most organizations get wrong: training. From law enforcement and ambulance services to firefighting and rail freight, Robert Hockings has seen how poorly designed technology and “tick-the-box” training can turn capable people into frustrated, unsafe, and ineffective operators. He helps leaders, trainers, and change managers transform training from a rushed cost center into a strategic investment by starting with intuitive behavior, real-world context, and outcome-based design. When lives, reputations, and productivity are on the line, Robert Hockings shows you how to get change right the first time. Resources: Turn Potential Into Results: Explore Hawkeye Coaching Get your Copy of Secret to Success Talking Points: [0:00] Meet Public Safety Training Expert Robert Hawking [1:03] When “Magic” New Technology Backfires in the Real World [3:20] What Public Safety Really Means: Law, Fire, Ambulance, Disasters [3:47] Intuitive Skills: From Stick Shift Driving to Police Drills [5:35] The Costly Radio Upgrade That Made Motorcycle Policing Harder [8:05] Why Tech Fails: Forcing People to Fit Systems Instead of the Reverse [8:52] Tailoring Firefighter Training to Background, Region, and Reality [11:22] Making Change Exciting: Delivering Features Users Actually Wanted [14:
Australian chiropractor and Secrets to Success co-author Caroline Triebold shares how tiny, consistent lifestyle tweaks can radically change your long-term health without overwhelming routines or fad diets. Drawing on 38 years in chiropractic practice, she explains why proper hydration sipping water throughout the day, aiming for roughly 30 ml per kilogram of bodyweight, and adding minerals like Celtic sea salt is one of the simplest yet most powerful first steps. Caroline Triebold shows how stacking movement into everyday moments, like toe raises while washing your hands or glute squeezes at traffic lights, helps you get fitter without “finding extra time.” She encourages playful, childlike movement walking backwards, skipping, or tiptoeing to stimulate the nervous system and reawaken muscles adults often ignore. Throughout, she emphasizes replacing habits rather than just removing them, and letting each small win build belief, confidence, and self-respect. Caroline Triebold also reframes “health is wealth” beyond money to include time, energy, mood, and the quality of your closest relationships. She shares stories of patients whose migraines, chronic pain, and low energy didn’t just drain their finances but made them snappier with their children, distant from partners, and less present in daily life. By adjusting the spine and improving nervous system function, she’s seen people regain not only physical comfort but emotional resilience and a more positive outlook. She explains how consistent small choices, better hydration, less snacking, moving more, giving up coffee when you decide to rewire the brain for success and make bigger goals like 5K charity walks suddenly feel achievable. Her core message is hopeful and practical: you can’t hire anyone to do your push-ups, but if you commit to 10 minutes and one better choice at a time, your body, relationships, and future self will thank you. For nearly 40 years, Australian chiropractor Caroline Triebold has been quietly transforming lives by focusing on the tiny daily choices that make or break your health. Instead of overwhelming overhauls or fads, Caroline Triebold shows you how 10 minutes and one better choice at a time like smarter hydration, playful movement, and habit-stacking can reset your nervous system, rebuild your energy, and even repair strained family dynamics. She believes health is your real wealth: it buys you time, presence, and better relationships. As a co-author of Secrets to Success, Caroline Triebold is the guide for people ready to reclaim their health, gently but powerfully. Resources: Caroline Triebold’s Official Website Get your Copy of Secret to Success Caroline Triebold Email Address Talking Points: [0:00] Meet Chiropractor and Health Advocate Caroline Triebold [0:30] The First Tiny Habit: Drink Water the Right Way [1:30] How Much Water Do You Really Need Daily? [3:10] Make Water Fun: Simple Hydration Upgrades [4:39] The Worst Time to Drink Water with Meals [6:06] After Hydration, What’s the Next Health Step? [7:30] Sneaking Exercise into Your Day Without Extra Time [9:25] Childlike Movement: Why Your Nervous System Needs Play [11:21] Small Wins, Bigger Goals: Building Health Momentum [13:16] Attitude, Self-Respect, and Sticking to New Habits [16:29] How Health Creates Wealth in Time, Money, and Joy [18:15] Migraines, Pain, and the Hidden Cost to Family Life [21:33] Beyond Back Pain: How Chiropractic Impacts Your Whole Body [23:09] Snappy with Your Kids? The Pain–Temper Connection [24:59] How to Work with Caroline and Where to Find Her [26:21] “You Can’t Hire Anyone to Do Your Push-Ups” Final Lessons Source
Nationally accredited mediator and Mediation Mastery founder Andrew Brayne shares how discovering mediation at just 17 put him on a 35+ year path of resolving more than 3,000 disputes across courts, families, and workplaces. In this episode, he explains why listening without judgment, avoiding assumptions, and even using strategic silence are the real superpowers in conflict resolution. Andrew Brayne describes how his role is not to give advice or choose sides, but to create a safe structure where people feel heard, acknowledged, and valued, even when they strongly disagree. He recounts high-conflict cases, including peace and good behaviour mediations where previously violent parties ended sessions hugging, simply because the process slowed down enough for them to hear each other. Throughout, he shows how shifting conversations from rigid positions (“I want the house”) to underlying interests and needs unlocks solutions that seemed impossible at the start. Drawing on his STAR model and “conflict to clarity” approach, Andrew Brayne breaks down practical tools like reframing language, exploring the “possible agreement range,” and moving discussions away from rights and power struggles toward interest-based negotiation. He shares how these same principles apply inside workplaces, where unresolved tension quietly drives sick leave, absenteeism, grievances, and lost productivity long before an official complaint surfaces. Andrew Brayne now focuses on early intervention, upskilling leaders and teams in communication, mentoring internal champions, and treating the workplace as an interconnected system where conflict creates ripple effects far beyond two people. He explains how remote mediation and coaching allow him to support organizations across Australia and internationally, from early learning centers to complex corporate environments. His core message is both practical and hopeful: you don’t need to agree with someone to move forward harmoniously, you just need a clear process, the right questions, and the courage to truly listen. Nationally accredited mediator Andrew Brayne has spent over 35 years stepping into the toughest conflicts most of us run from. Founder of MediationMastery.com.au, he’s conducted more than 3,000 mediations and trained over 10,000 people to handle conflict before it explodes. Andrew’s genius is turning messy, emotional disputes into practical conversations that create clarity, respect, and real agreement. Drawing on his STAR model and “conflict to clarity” framework, he helps workplaces, leaders, and teams move from blame, factions, and burnout to early resolution and stronger relationships. If unresolved conflict is quietly costing you trust, time, and talent, Andrew is the expert you want in your corner. Resources: Learn More About the Mediation Mastery Program Get your Copy of Secret to Sucess Talking Points: [0:00] Meet Mediator Andrew Brayne from Mediation Mastery [0:47] How a 17-Year-Old Stumbled into Mediation [2:16] The Lesson That Changed Everything: Don’t Be Judgmental [3:32] Why Listening Beats Talking in Any Conflict [4:47] “You’re Too Young” Earning Respect as a Young Mediator [6:21] The Real Job of a Mediator (It’s Not Giving Advice) [7:49] What People Actually Want in Conflict: To Be Heard [9:05] The Power of Silence in Tough Conversations [10:24] When Court-Ordered Mediations Get Heated<span style="font-weight
Mining industry veteran and blue-collar tradie David Kennington shares how a brutal financial wake-up call losing one-sixth of his retirement savings while still paying management fees pushed him into a “second apprenticeship” learning money. Seeing how vulnerable workers are when they rely on a single paycheck, he now focuses on teaching tradies and blue-collar workers how to build financial resilience with multiple income streams. David’s practical 4T Method Track, Trim, Transfer, and Triple guides listeners from chaos and creeping debt into clear visibility over their cash flow, intentional spending cuts, consistent saving, and smart investing. He emphasizes that you don’t need a finance degree or a massive starting balance to become an investor in today’s low-cost, technology-driven markets. Instead, ordinary people can begin with small amounts, diversify across shares, property, and other assets, and aim to gradually replace their job income over a decade. Throughout the conversation, David Kennington is disarmingly honest about his own missteps, including falling into credit card debt over a simple washing machine purchase and realizing he was great at managing his retirement account but terrible with day-to-day finances. He explains how emotional control is just as critical as technical know-how, since panic and fear can cause people to buy high, sell low, and sabotage their own plans. By putting rules in place like predefined exit points and long-term strategies he shows how to keep emotions from wrecking investments when markets inevitably bounce up and down. A powerful “shame moment,” when he compared his situation to a younger colleague who had already provided a home for his family, became the catalyst that pushed him to act and soon after buy investment properties. David’s core message is simple and empowering: you can either live life by default, letting money happen to you, or live by design by taking responsibility, learning basic money skills, and deliberately building a more secure financial future. David Kennington is a blue-collar tradie and mining industry veteran who turned a financial wake-up call into a mission to help others escape the paycheck-to-paycheck trap. After watching a sixth of his retirement savings vanish while still paying fees, he committed to a “second apprenticeship” in money. David Kennington now teaches everyday workers his practical 4T Method: Track where your money goes, Trim what you don’t need, Transfer what you save, and aim to Triple it through smart investing. He specializes in helping tradies build resilience with multiple income streams, manage emotions around money, and live life by design not default. Resources: Visit TradiesEarn.com and Start Building Wealth Beyond Your Paycheck Get your Copy of Secret to Success Talking Points: [0:00] Meet Tradie-Turned-Investor David Kennington [0:53] Why Blue-Collar Workers Need Money Skills Too [2:20] The 4T Method: Track, Trim, Transfer, Triple [3:02] Why One Income Isn’t Financially Safe Anymore [4:32] Step One: Get Honest About Your Money Mess [6:07] Turning Job Income Into Investment Income [7:23] Why Everyday People Can Now Be Investors [8:17] Shares, Property, Crypto: Diversifying Like a Pro [9:10] The Emotional Rollercoaster of Investing [10:04] Simple Rules to Stop Panic-Selling Your Investments [12:36] Losing 1/6 of His Retirement and Fighting Back [13:48] The Credit Card Trap: From Washing Machine to Debt Spiral [14:48] The Shame Moment That Changed Everything [16:45] Living by Default vs. Living by Design Source
Home sustainability assessor and energy consultant expert Brenton Watkins explains why a “monster” power bill often means your home is quietly doing exactly what it was told not that something is broken. Drawing on decades in air conditioning and home energy assessments, he walks through a practical checklist: insulation in the roof, walls, and underfloor; sealing gaps and drafts; and improving the air tightness of your home. Brenton Watkins explains how thermal imaging can reveal hidden insulation gaps and how smarter hot water choices like heat pump systems powered by rooftop solar PV can dramatically cut costs versus old electric storage tanks. He breaks down what makes an air conditioner efficient, including zoning your ducted system and understanding coefficient of performance so you’re not wasting power heating or cooling unused rooms. Instead of chasing trendy fixes, Brenton Watkins urges homeowners to start with insulation and structure, then move toward equipment upgrades only where they truly matter. Throughout, he emphasizes that a tailored plan beats guessing or buying the first shiny “energy-saving” product. Brenton Watkins also shares simple behavioral tweaks that cost nothing but can save hundreds: setting air conditioners to realistic temperatures, turning off standby power, optimizing fridge and freezer settings, and closing curtains or adding shade to combat heat. He tells a striking case study of a luxury home bleeding money through underfloor slab heating, misaligned and shaded solar hot water panels, a 24/7 circulation pump, and an overused pool pump proving how small, hidden decisions can blow out a power bill. Rather than heating concrete floors, he jokes that slippers are cheaper and far more efficient. Brenton Watkins explains how prior owners, builders, or DIY decisions often leave new occupants with inefficient setups they don’t even realize are running. From there, he outlines how his consultancy helps homeowners walk through their property, identify the true energy culprits, and prioritize improvements for maximum return. His core message: don’t jump at the first fix, diagnose, customize, and tackle the right problems in the right order so your house stops costing too much to run. Brenton Watkins is a home sustainability assessor and veteran of the air conditioning industry who helps homeowners hunt down the hidden culprits behind sky‑high power bills. Instead of selling gadgets or quick fixes, Brenton Watkins diagnoses how your home truly uses energy from insulation, air leaks, and hot water systems to air conditioning zones, pool pumps, and standby power. He shows you how to stop “heating the street,” set your systems correctly, and prioritize upgrades that actually cut costs. If your house “costs too much to run,” Brenton is the expert who turns confusing energy bills into clear, practical action steps that save money year after year. Resources: Get your Copy of Secret to Success Talking Points: [0:00] Why Your “Monster” Power Bill Might Be Normal [0:56] Meet Home Sustainability Assessor Brenton Watkins [1:10] The First Thing to Check: Insulation, Not Solar [2:10] Air Leaks, Drafts, and Thermal Imaging Camera Secrets [3:32] Hot Water Showdown: Old Tanks vs. Heat Pumps and Solar [5:18] Is Your Ducted Aircon Wasting Power on Empty Rooms? [6:37] Understanding Coefficient of Performance (Without the Jargon) [8:16] Ditching Gas and Switching to All-Electric the Smart Way [9:35] Thermostat Myths: Why 18°C Won’t Cool Your House Faster [11:45
Life Coach and author Tina Beiser shows how the seasons we often experience as humiliation, terror, or failure abusive marriage, sudden single motherhood, blended families, near-bankruptcy, empty nest, and restless retirement can become footholds instead of cliffs when we keep moving and “change the view.” Drawing on a difficult childhood, escaping an abusive husband with two small children and no support network, rebuilding after a devastating business investigation that forced her family to sell their home and drain their savings, and even hand-building stone walls in her garden to keep her sanity, Tina reveals how ordinary, persistent steps forward create extraordinary strength. She explains why the pain of staying can one day outweigh the fear of change, why verbal abuse and careless words leave deeper scars than bruises, and how shifting our self-talk and perspective turns survival into growth. Through her writing, including her chapter “It’s All About the View: Finding Your Footing When Life Changes the Landscape” in Secrets to Success, and her willingness to personally connect with readers, she helps people facing painful transitions believe “I am better than this,” navigate each new chapter with courage, and rediscover hope even when the path is steep and the light ahead seems to go out. Tina Beiser is a Life Coach who helps people facing painful life transitions divorce, single parenthood, financial crisis, empty nest, and retirement find their footing when everything familiar falls away. Having escaped an abusive marriage, raised two daughters alone with no support network, survived near-bankruptcy in business, and rebuilt her life multiple times, Tina doesn’t speak from theory she’s “been in the trenches.” Drawing on vivid real-life stories captured in her writing, including her chapter “It’s All About the View” in Secrets to Success, she shows you how to keep moving, reframe the hardest seasons, and rediscover hope when the path ahead feels impossibly steep. Resources: Get your Copy of Secret to Success Talking Points: [0:00] Escaping Abuse, Failure, and Fear: Meet Tina Beiser [0:59] “Raw, Real, and Honest”: Why Tina Shares the Messy Parts [1:18] What Is a “Perfect Life” Anyway? Learning to Work With the One You Have [2:07] Difficult Childhood, Missing Father, and Finding Freedom Outdoors [2:38] Rock Climbing in the Lake District: “Don’t Look Down, Just Keep Going” [3:13] Highs, Lows, and the Power of Time: When Tragedy Turns into Humor [4:02] Many Pivotal Moments: Leaving Home, Moving Overseas, and Marrying Young [5:05] “The Pain of Staying vs. Moving On”: Escaping an Abusive Marriage [5:39] Three Years as a Single Mum: No Money, No Family, No Help [6:22] Stuffing the Car with Kids and a Cat: Starting Over in the Snowy Mountains [7:05] Blended Family Challenges: Trying to Be the “Perfect” Stepmother [8:03] Hitting Emotional Exhaustion Then Slowly Finding a New Family Rhythm [8:39] Business Success, Sudden Investigation, and Almost Losing Everything [9:35] Refusing Bankruptcy, Selling the House, and Rebuilding from Scratch [10:28] Stone Walls Instead of Fences: A Garden Project That Saved Her Sanity [11:18] Empty Nest Shock: “What Do We Talk About Now It’s Just Us?” [11:58] Retiring After 7-Day Weeks and Climbing the Walls Within Six Weeks
Adelaide-based arborist and tree care expert David Mably, fondly called the “James Bond of trees” shares 40 years of wisdom in tree care, gardening, and people. David explains how he transforms overgrown, intimidating gardens into personal sanctuaries by doing one simple but rare thing: truly listening. He walks through his philosophy of treating every backyard as an “inner sanctum” that reflects memories, emotions, and family history. David explains how he repeats clients’ own words back to them to ensure he fully understands what they want before pruning, removing, or planting trees. He tells stories of clients whose gardens honor grandparents, childhoods, or grandkids exploring special paths through the yard. David also dives into his old-school values: respecting every property as if it were his own, mentoring his crew to avoid damage at all costs, and owning mistakes when they happen. He contrasts this with “Bodgy Brothers” operators who hack and slash, ignoring the garden’s character. He shares how he even repurposes pruned branches to feed elephants, giraffes, and other animals at local zoos turning tree work into environmental contribution. Beyond trees, David talks about lifelong learning, mentoring apprentices and youth, teaching 32 subjects at TAFE, and lecturing at the University of Adelaide. He reflects on the realities of small business doing everything from quoting to accounting while still striving to work on the business, not just in it. His core message: keep your passion alive, keep learning daily, and build your work on integrity, relationships, and genuine care for people and their gardens. Adelaide-based arborist David Mably is known as the “James Bond of trees” for a reason. With nearly 40 years in arboriculture, he specializes in rescuing overgrown, intimidating gardens without destroying what makes them special. David’s gift is listening deeply to homeowners then translating their memories, emotions, and wishes into practical tree care, from precision pruning to safe removals and thoughtful replanting. He and his team protect delicate plants, respect every property as if it were their own, and even repurpose branches to feed zoo animals. If you feel overwhelmed by your trees and garden, David turns chaos into a calm, beautiful sanctuary. Resources: Official Website of Arbor Care Solutions Get your Copy of Secret to Success Talking Points: [0:00] Meet the “James Bond of Trees” from Adelaide [0:53] Listening First: How David Understands Every Garden [2:19] Front Yard vs. Backyard: Why the Back Is Your “Inner Sanctum” [4:19] Turning Memories Into Gardens: Grandparents, Kids, and Paths [6:49] Respecting Every Plant: “Imagine This Is Your Own Garden” [8:25] Avoiding “Bodgy Brothers”: Doing Tree Work the Right Way [10:56] Before-and-After Tree Photos That Sell Themselves [12:56] Feeding Zoos With Pruned Branches: Elephants, Giraffes & More [15:49] Learn Something New Every Day or Be “Six Feet Under” [18:03] From Dyslexic Kid to Teacher of 32 Horticulture Subjects [20:42] Youth Programs, University Lectures, and Mentoring the Next Generation [22:06] The Reality of Small Business: Doing Every Job Yourself [23:17] Life Seasons, Ups and Downs, and Never Getting Stale [24:38] Books, Conversations, and the Power of Asking Better Questions [25:54] Gardens as Emotional Spaces: Scent, Memory, and Healing [28:16] Botanical Gardens, Private Sanctuaries, and Escaping the Hustle [29:33] Tree Services in Adelaide: What ArborCareSolutions.com.au Offers [30:37] “People for a Moment, a Season, a Lifetime, a Challenge” [32:19] Joy in the Work: Why Struggling to Get Out of Bed Is a Red Flag [33:25] Relationship Business: Why Listening Wins 60–70% of Quotes <a href="https://www.bestsellingauthorpodcast.com/adelaide-arbo
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We interview the most successful, best-selling mindset, life coach, and business authors to get their best secrets about being healthy, wealthy, and wise. They are co-authors with Pat Mesiti and David Cavanagh.
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