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We're Not Marketers: Daily Summaries Delivered
by Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either.What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers.The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door.Stop being overlooked and start listening.Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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- Yesterday33 min
No One Reads Messaging Docs, w/ Libby Lienhoop
Libby Lienhoop thinks the name of this show is wrong.Now the Director of PMM and Sales Enablement at Conquest Planning, she first started out her career selling newspaper coupons in San Francisco, moved into tech sales, and watched one great product marketer run enablement until she knew that was the job she wanted. Product marketers are the connective tissue between the product and the market. Her words, not ours, and here's the kicker: AI just made the good ones more important. Do you agree? We get into this next conversation, with Eric's favorite topic: why the messaging doc in your Google Drive is dead weight, and from there, jump to what to build for sales instead, helping see why website copy alone doesn't convert a sales call to closed-one. If you've ever written a messaging doc and wondered who read it, start here.Show Notes00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab00:53 Meet Libby Lienhoop, and how to actually say her name02:44 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers?03:14 Libby: PMMs are the connective tissue between product and market03:53 She started in sales, so why marketing?04:22 Selling newspaper coupons in San Francisco05:44 The product marketer whose enablement sessions sold her on the job07:17 The layoff that opened the door to marketing08:34 Her beef with marketers: the billboard isn't the sales conversation09:08 Sitting in on power-dialing sessions with the sales team10:14 No laptop, desktop only: the old-school sales floor10:58 How a boss from her coupon days brought her into ClickUp13:09 The new role: product marketing for a fintech company building AI for financial planners14:44 Why fintech is ripe for AI15:58 What's a PMM worth in the age of AI?17:32 Gab: PMMs will be managing agentic workflows18:04 The just-in-time sales deck, and why no one reads the messaging doc18:48 Eric's messaging docs: put them in the AI tool everyone already uses19:57 New market, new job: process gap or knowledge gap?21:33 Bringing a fast company's pace into a new one22:48 Two interview roadblocks: industry experience and "too long at one company"23:51 Listen to your gut, then set expectations out loud25:19 Turning four years at one company into a story27:03 The 30/60/90 plan, and Netflix's keeper test28:37 The B2B version of MySpace's top eight29:18 When AI takes your job anyway31:05 There's no one-size-fits-all way to handle a layoff32:03 Take a beat: the cortisol levels are real32:57 Where to find LibbyMentioned in the episodeLenny's Podcast, How Netflix builds a culture of excellence (Elizabeth Stone): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellenceNooks: https://www.nooks.aiFind and connect with Libby on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/libby-lienhoop-9b686442/Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- 1 weeks ago46 min
IC vs PMM leadership. Is the promotion today still worth it? (with Emily Pick)
Emily Pick (Director of Product Marketing at Docebo) can do product marketing in her sleep. So when she earned the director title, she took it. Is it still worth it? She tells her side of the story, and if you're asking yourself the same? You might relate with what's she saying below.Notable quotes“I was promoted because I was a good IC, and because I was a good IC, I have opinions about what good looks like.”“Every yes is a no to something else you’ve already promised.”“Great launch, great launch. Here’s everything else that’s wrong that needs to be fixed.”“Can you shoulder the emotions of your team, and can you also have the boundaries that you don’t fully take it home with you every single night?”Thinking about the jump from IC to PMM leadership? Listen to someone who made it, who will tell you what it costs, and who still thinks her team is the best part of her day.Time Stamps00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab00:49 Meet Emily Pick of Docebo, fresh off Highline02:25 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers?05:40 Player and coach: from IC to director06:58 The pat on the back you lose as a manager07:25 Why she left IC after six or seven years08:39 Zach asks: is it worth it?09:42 How your leaders make or break the leap11:56 Zach's story: the manager who punished candor12:45 Start every one-on-one with how you are13:23 Can you shoulder your team's emotions?14:55 A shout-out to the team16:07 From 10 hours of meetings a week to 2517:35 Her review note: say no more18:00 Every yes is a no to something already promised20:00 Why PMM means constant context switching21:39 Gab asks: how do you make yourself easy to work with?22:21 How to say no without starting a fight24:25 The about-working-with-me doc25:43 Bring a problem, bring a proposed solution26:30 Keeping quality up as a player coach28:37 Promoted for being a good IC30:34 The pizza place night that taught her to delegate32:15 Eric asks: is the director track worth it?33:29 Could you ask your boss to demote you?37:08 Bad decisions are what give you the experience39:06 Zach asks about the weight of a layoff39:38 A wildfire alert, mid-question40:32 What helped her after being RIF'd41:48 Build in public before you need it44:30 Where to find Emily (and Hank the dog)Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- 2 weeks ago35 min
Time to pivot? Fractional PMMs reveal.
Three fractional PMMs (Eric, Gab and Zach), one uncomfortable question: when you pivot your offer, do you actually know what you're doing?In this next episode, Zach opens up about his two business pivots this year. Does he know what he's doing? That's what he asked himself. Nine months passed with ZERO sales. So he asked Eric and Gab the thing he'd been too embarrassed to ask anyone else. Both said "No, you don't know what you're doing." Who does? This is a Misfit episode, just the three of us. We get into how to tell a real signal from a bad month, why differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand, and Gab's four-letter sales audit (leads, appointments, proposals, sales) to run before you blow anything up. There's more we cover without going into too much detail here. If you're having a bad month (or year) as a fractional PMM, hop onto this audio therapy session and feel heard. Show Notes00:00 Cold open: when your self-worth is tied to your business00:16 Welcome: Zach, Eric (the Frankenmarketer) and Gab00:37 A Misfit episode: when you pivot your offer, do you know what you're doing?01:37 Eric says no: pivoting at 3, 6 or 12 months is too early to know03:36 Gab: differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand03:57 Zach: self-worth, and figuring it out 50/50 as you go05:07 Gab: be 80% distribution, 20% build06:32 Eric: you'll know when the wheels come off the train08:03 The highlight reel: what you see online isn't always what happened09:51 Zach: is it a business or a hobby?10:57 Eric: the confidence bucket13:43 Gab's own pivot: from messaging to message testing14:11 LAPS: leads, appointments, proposals, sales15:40 The comparison trap and the "fountain of leads"18:12 Gab on Dan Koe: darts blindfolded while the target moves20:29 Six figures, but are you happy?22:37 Repositioning takes time: "I still don't know what you do"24:31 Zach: not a fit isn't an indictment25:27 Closing thoughts. Eric: find people who fill your cup26:23 Gab: follow the demand. Iteration vs. a hard pivot29:20 Zach: asking for help isn't being less than30:48 The Confident Mind: claim your first victory, then audit your feed33:14 Gab: zoom out, it's a game of longevity34:26 Zach: chess is a game of patienceBooks to readThe Courage to Be Disliked, Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga: https://www.betterreading.com.au/book/the-courage-to-be-disliked/The Confident Mind, Dr. Nate Zinsser: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/441864/the-confident-mind-by-zinsser-nathaniel/9781529159028Mentioned in the episodeDaniel Priestley (LAPS, per Gab): https://www.danielpriestley.comDan Koe: https://thedankoe.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- 4 weeks ago39 min
They're Paying $400K for a Job Product Marketers Already Do, w/ Elliott Rayner
Companies are posting head of storytelling roles at around $400K a year, and Elliott Rayner (Head of Storytelling at OWOW Agency and Creator of The Story Cohort) has the receipts: 25 of those job descriptions, pulled apart in his State of Storytelling 2026 report. His read is that it is a chief product marketing officer under a different name. The skill set they are asking for is a product marketing director's skill set. So why is nobody in product marketing putting their hand up?In this episode, he breaks down his three-question alignment he's run at more than 100 companies, and why the average score is just 19% across orgs. Plus the three chemicals that decide whether a story sells, and why credibility is where most product stories fall apart. Listen now.Show Notes00:00 Welcome to season six00:19 Introducing Elliott Rayner01:29 Are product marketers actually marketers03:01 The State of Storytelling report and the $400K roles05:19 Owning the narrative is not the same as telling stories07:48 Seven reporting lines across 25 roles08:59 Storytelling is the skill, narrative is what you own10:21 Reason one: products got too complex to explain11:03 Reason two: execution has become cheap, meaning has not13:17 Storytelling is a science, not a talent you are born with14:33 Everyone wants to be better at it, nobody studies it15:54 The three questions every product narrative answers16:14 Only 19% alignment across more than 100 companies17:17 Aristotle's triangle: logic, emotion, credibility18:59 Career paths and where this role fits21:09 Connecting the story to call recordings and CRM data24:37 Where the role sits on the org chart26:02 Nobody hands you $400K without a KPI28:23 Joseph Campbell's story circle29:03 Three chemicals that decide whether a story sells32:07 The gobsmacked problem: rich language now reads as AI34:34 Fuck, marry, kill: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter37:33 The Story Engine and why we get addicted to stories38:21 Where to find ElliottBooks and Courses to See1. The Story Engine by Elliott Rayner, where the addiction-to-stories idea comes from. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/o/3c56112. The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, the story circle Elliott builds on. https://www.jcf.org/learn/joseph-campbell-heros-journeyAdditional Sources to Explore1. Product Narratives, Elliott's site and home of the State of Storytelling report. https://productnarratives.com2. The Product Storytelling Cohort on Maven. Next one runs November 16 to December 13, 2026. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/storytellingcohort3. Marketing Examples, the site of Harry Dry, who taught Eric "but and so." https://marketingexamples.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- Oct 1, 202641 min
Death to Sameness w/ Nina Churchill
Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else. We get into the post, the burnout and the 11 weeks of FMLA before it, and why we put up with behavior at work that we'd call abuse at home. Then the useful stuff. Why your manager is the top reason you stay or go. The questions to ask a hiring manager before you take the job. And oh yeah, by the way? She's also coming to Death to Marketing in October.Timestamps00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves00:29 Meet Nina Churchill, recovering performance marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts01:27 Nina's coming to Death to Marketing (and Saugatuck)02:06 Gab's question: are product marketers ultimately marketers?03:42 The LinkedIn post that made Eric want to run through a wall04:18 A new manager, a burnout, and 11 weeks of FMLA06:44 "Effective immediately"07:06 Half a million people and a flood of DMs07:46 Why do we accept at work what we'd call abuse at home?10:32 Any backlash? "I can't like this, but I respect it"11:09 "Your LinkedIn is your LinkedIn"12:25 Jumping without a parachute: therapy, ADHD, and deleting the apps15:34 Blood pressure, cortisol, and life after quitting17:59 Boundaries: bad at them, or never practiced?18:59 Fresh View Concepts, 2011, and some questionable age math19:32 Running her business differently this time around20:20 "Oh, you look stable"21:15 Productive in two hours, not eight23:06 The moment she decided she was the boss23:29 The agency that always had her back25:10 From bartending to product marketing in HR tech26:07 How much your manager really matters27:59 Interview the hiring manager too30:38 The coworker who gave her name to recruiters32:04 Why she signed up for Death to Marketing34:50 Do we need to hide the booze? Mocktails for everybody35:58 Death to sameness37:31 Payroll, and why nobody trusts your AI39:40 Where to find Nina: the Sameness Report and WhirlAdditional sources1. Fresh View Concepts, Nina's positioning consultancy https://freshviewconcepts.com2. Whirl, Nina's AI mock interview tool (free if you were recently laid off) https://whirlinterview.com3. Nina Churchill on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ninachurchill/4. Nina's writing at 3Sixty Insights https://3sixtyinsights.com/author/ninachurchill/5. PostHog, Nina's example of a brand that's actually different https://posthog.com6. Death to Marketing, October 2026 https://www.death-to-marketing.comHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- Sep 24, 202641 min
Your CEO Just Handed You an Event. Now What? w/ Maggie Arai
Your CEO just said you're hosting an event. You've never run one. Now what?Maggie Arai is the Founder of IRL Studios, where she designs in-person events for online brands. She's run more than 70 of them. She's also the person keeping Death to Marketing, our own conference, out of a ballroom with fluorescent lighting.We asked her what a product marketer needs to know before their first event lands on their desk. Where the budget quietly disappears (food and bev, every time). Why every event needs a 10 to 15% contingency line. And her take on open networking (heads up: not the answer none of us expected).She also tells us, on the record, where we already messed up planning our own event. If you've been handed an event with no budget, no team, and a note to "do something like that happy hour," start here.What and who was mentioned in today's episodeIRL Studios, Maggie's company: https://irlstudios.caMaggie Arai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-arai/Above the Fold: https://www.spiralyze.com/abovethefoldHighline by UserEvidence: https://userevidence.com/highline/Toronto Tech Week: https://www.torontotechweek.com/Death to Marketing: https://www.death-to-marketing.comIn this episode00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves00:29 Meet Maggie Arai, Founder of IRL Studios and our event planner01:31 Why would anyone sign up to run something this insane?02:18 Nobody wants another ballroom with fluorescent lighting03:26 What scared her about taking on her first B2B event04:29 Event number 71, and still intimidated05:44 You don't have to be a product marketer to have imposter syndrome06:01 Are the rules different for B2B and consumer events?09:21 Her first real exposure to a room full of product marketers11:04 The IRL Studios thesis: getting online people into one room13:31 Zach wants his lawyer in a suit14:19 Be honest: where did we mess up?14:50 The budget line nobody scoped: venue visits16:32 Get more detailed in your budget than you think you need17:57 Why every event budget needs a 10 to 15% contingency line18:58 Your CEO says you're hosting an event. What catches you off guard?19:23 Food and bev will eat your budget21:13 Skydiving, whitewater rafting, and the insurance question22:46 Why we killed the roast, and what replaced it26:23 How Maggie designs events people actually want to attend27:57 Easy to host an event, hard to host one that moves the needle28:45 Why Death to Marketing ends with a field trip30:23 The one event practice that has to die31:05 Open networking has to die33:18 The invisible hierarchy in every networking room36:16 Drink tickets are not a designed experience37:22 Toronto Tech Week: two DJs and nowhere to talk38:27 Go see the room for yourself39:20 Where to find MaggieHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- Sep 17, 202631 min
We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event
Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches.The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event.Show Notes00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget15:22 The survey that got over 10,000 visits, and what belongs on a resume now16:05 Where the name Mojo came from17:57 The difference between fear and expecting fear19:14 Death to Marketing, six weeks before a wedding20:14 Three guys, no private equity, one event23:34 Zach's cutout blows over, and Brendan Hufford checks in24:48 Community with a lowercase c27:34 What happens when a 200 person event becomes 40028:16 The boat tour, and what they took for Lake Michigan29:39 LaShay Lewis, and the line that stuck30:01 The pain of change is no longer worse than the pain of staying the same31:16 Go shake hands, go touch grassHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
- Sep 10, 202636 min
Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor
Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue.Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it.She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode.SHOW NOTES00:00 Cold open and host introductions00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers?02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing"03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos"05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good20:43 Gab on developing taste21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype25:05 The pizza tier list begins27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you"30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven35:53 Where to find NatalieSOURCESCapsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.videoModern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.comEmily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engineNatalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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About We're Not Marketers
B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either.What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers.The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door.Stop being overlooked and start listening.Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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