The Science of How Small Talk Can Add Up to a Big Life with Dr. Gillian Sandstrom

Welcome to the Conversation Factory, conversation designers. My guest today is Dr. Gillian Sandstrom, a psychologist at the University of Sussex who studies what happens when we talk to people we don't know. She is a scientist of Small Talk.  Her book, Once Upon a Stranger, is all about the science of how small talk can add up to a big life. And I know exactly what you're thinking.  I hate small talk. I hear this all the time from plenty of senior leaders. "It's dumb, it's a waste of time!" they say. "Let's just get on with the real stuff. Big Talk!" The research does not support your aversion. Your brain is telling you that you dislike small talk because it feels hard. That hardness is the resistance we feel toward any new skill, not evidence that it isn't worth doing. Small talk is a learnable skill, and it is far better for us than we think. It's like medicine we don't want to take that can heal us tremendously. Dr. Sandstrom's data is clear: small talk is a life skill. My anecdotal data shows that small talk is also a leadership skill. A leader who says "I hate small talk" is missing out on opportunities to intentionally create connection and community, to learn what's really going on with their team, to build a little psychological safety into every meeting and interaction. Some of the leaders I coach, and the leaders in the forums I facilitate, have made their peace with this by telling themselves, "Small talk isn't for me, it's for them."  And they're right that it's an act of service, creating a moment of connection for everyone else in the room. But here's what I think they're missing: how much they themselves might come to enjoy it, and how much they will learn from it.  In fact, the ones who've been willing to do the experiment, to lean into small talk, have found it has made their professional lives more enjoyable and surprised their spouses to boot. Now, maybe you're thinking: but Daniel, I'm an introvert. That's fair. But here's one of the most surprising things in Gillian's research: Introverts enjoy social interaction just as much as extroverts, and they're just as good at it. And across the board, these conversations that sometimes we feel resistance to and anxiety about usually go far better than we expect. And here's the part that surprises people most: even when efficiency feels like the whole point — getting your coffee, getting through the line — taking a moment to actually connect leaves you happier and more connected. And you're still waiting for that coffee either way. I've seen this efficiency work against leaders in meetings because I find that a meeting that starts cold stays cold, while a meeting where someone takes those first few minutes to actually welcome people in comes alive and leads to better work. So let's review: Efficiency is overrated. Creating micro-spacious moments to connect with people is nearly always more enjoyable and beneficial than we think Even if you're an introvert, you can be good at talking to people AND enjoy it as much as an extrovert Talking to people is a learnable skill. We reference one of my favorite Pride and Prejudice moments where Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet discuss how talking to strangers is a learnable skill like playing the pianoforte, not a fixed personality trait. Gillian has a framework in her book, the acronym QUICK. I refer to it in the interview, but we don't break it down. How to QUICK-ly break down talking to people into manageable skills and mindsets QU is for Questions, and her favorite is as simple as "whatcha doing?" You see someone photographing a fence, or fiddling with something in the park — "whatcha doing?" — coming from a place of real curiosity. I've discovered that in meetings, you can ask almost anything at the beginning to get people talking and to create a moment of spaciousness. One CEO I coached loved asking icebreaker questions. On a day when I was observing the executive leadership team, he asked everyone, "What is your favorite sandwich?" One amazing thing was that everybody answered the question differently. Each person's answer was a micro-manual to understanding more about that person, because the CTO answered differently than the COO, who a