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by Science and Nonduality
Sounds of SAND invites listeners into a contemplative journey through the infinite cycles of existence - from its raw beauty to its deepest mysteries, from its intricate complexity to its profound wonder. Through intimate conversations, thought-provoking interviews, poetic readings, and carefully curated music, we weave together ancient wisdom with lived experience, creating a tapestry of sound that honors the great questions of being
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- 5 days ago1h 25m
Sacred Remembering in Times of War: Dr. Jaiya John (Mshkiki Odeh Inini, Medicine Heart Man)
Recorded live at a SAND Community Gathering (April 2026) Hard times are here, we hunger for voices that can see beyond the fear, beyond the noise, beyond the technologies consuming our attention. We need poets and visionaries. People who remember freedom. Dr. Jaiya John (Mshkiki Odeh Inini, Medicine Heart Man), medicine poet, freedom worker, is one of those voices. He has spent his life gathering words that heal. In this conversation, we enter the beauty, the grief, and the medicine together. We sit with the devastation tearing our world, the sorrows cracking us open, the ancestors still holding us—and the radical insistence that collective freedom is not something we chase. It is something already alive in and between us, waiting to be birthed. Dr. Jaiya John (Mshkiki Odeh Inini, Medicine Heart Man) was orphan-born on ancient Indigenous Anasazi and Pueblo lands in the high desert of New Mexico. He is an ancestral Baba, freedom worker, medicine poet, and the founder of Soul Water Rising—a global mission to eradicate oppression through re-humanization, book donations, and grants to displaced youth. He is the author of numerous books including Freedom: Medicine Words for your Brave Revolution and Fragrance After Rain, and the creator of the podcast I Will Read for You. A former professor of social psychology at Howard University, he holds a doctorate from UC Santa Cruz and has spoken to over a million people worldwide. His Indigenous soul dreams of frybread, sweetgrass, bamboo in the breeze, and turtle lakes whose poetry is peace. Watch the full video version of this conversation. Topics 00:00 Welcome and Land Acknowledgment 02:31 Guest Bio and Introduction 03:51 Opening Blessing and Heart Question 05:10 Reclaiming Anger as Medicine 08:08 Libation Prayer for the World 15:57 Anger Rage and Lifted Veils 20:19 Rethinking War and Remembering Water 25:18 Gather Your People Reading 33:04 Grief Poetry and Inner Wars 36:13 War Wants Us Small 40:30 Soul Conditions That Grow War 42:14 Oxygen of War 44:12 Harvesting Clear Vision 47:05 Ferocious Grief Revival 49:38 How Grief Behaves 51:59 Poetry Against Silence 55:08 From Muteness to Voice 58:33 Artistry as Resurrection 01:03:42 Womanhood as Creativity 01:07:23 History as Sacred Hoop 01:12:45 Composting Harm into Healing 01:16:33 Intentional Living Practice 01:19:22 All These Rivers Choose Love 01:23:01 Blessings and Farewell Dr. Jaiya John — Guest <span style="font
- 1 weeks ago40 min
Awakening in Times of Collapse: Stephan Bodian
Stephan offers webinars, retreats, videos, books, and spiritual counseling that make profound spiritual teachings and practices accessible to a global audience. He studied and practiced for many years with great masters in the nondual wisdom traditions of Zen, Dzogchen-Mahamudra, and Advaita Vedanta, and in 2001 he received Dharma transmission (authorization to teach) from Adyashanti. In this conversation, recorded to mark the release of his new book Infinite Awakening: A Guide to Nondual Wisdom and the Pathless Path (Shambhala, May 2026), Stephan and Michael explore awakening not as a destination but as an ongoing, infinite process. They move through trauma and trust, the limits of mindfulness, the role of intimate relationship as spiritual path, and how nondual realization speaks — or fails to speak — to the metacrisis we're all living through. The episode closes with a guided "rest and allow" meditation from Stephan. Topics 00:00 — Reconnecting 00:04 — Awakening as a Path 00:10 — Trauma & Trust 00:16 — IFS & Somatic Therapy 00:18 — Intimate Relationships as Spiritual Path 00:21 — Spiritual Bypassing 00:27 — The Limits of Mindfulness 00:33 — Guided Meditation: Rest and Allow by Stephan Resources & Links Stephan Bodian Website: infinite-awakening.org Infinite Awakening: A Guide to Nondual Wisdom and the Pathless Path — Shambhala/Penguin Random House, May 2026 Beyond Mindfulness — referenced in the conversation Meditation for Dummies — Stephan Bodian Psychology Today interview: "Stephan Bodian on Our Innate Drive to Awaken" Referenced teachers and books Adyashanti — website — gave Stephan Dharma transmission; wrote the foreword to Infinite Awakening Ramana Maharshi — Wikipedia — referenced in discussion of awakening ideals Nisargadatta Maharaj — Wikipedia — "I am That"; referenced in discussion of true nature Thich Nhat Hanh — "inter-being" — referenced in discussion of inseparability and nonduality Ram Dass — "go home to your parents" — referenced in discuss
- 3 weeks ago59 min
Mysticism of Sound & Music: Michael Harrison (Encore)
We are resharing this episode in memory of Michael Harrison, who passed away on April 17, 2026. He was 67. In this episode, we discuss the life and work of musician and Sufi teacher Hazrat Inayat Khan with composer/pianist and Inayat Khan scholar Michael Harrison. Hazrat Inayat Khan ( July 1882 – 5 February 1927) was an Indian professor of musicology, singer, exponent of the saraswati vina, poet, philosopher, and pioneer of the transmission of Sufism to the West. At the urging of his students, and on the basis of his ancestral Sufi tradition and four-fold training and authorization at the hands of Sayyid Abu Hashim Madani (d. 1907) of Hyderabad, he established an order of Sufism (the Sufi Order) in London in 1914. By the time of his death in 1927, centers had been established throughout Europe and North America, and multiple volumes of his teachings had been published. Michael Harrison (October 24, 1958 - April 17, 2026) forged a new approach to composition through just intonation (the system of tuning based on pure harmonic proportions). His works blend classical music traditions of Europe and North India. He is a Guggenheim Fellowship and NYFA Artist Fellowship recipient. Michael created dedicated tuning systems for many of his works. He pioneered a structural approach to composition in which the proportions of harmonic relationships organically determine other musical elements such as pitch, duration, and dynamics. He also invented the “harmonic piano,” a grand piano that plays 24 notes per octave, documented in the Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments. Harrison seeks expressions of universality via the physics of sound – music that brings one into a state of concentrated listening as a meditative and even mind-altering experience. At the time of his death he was working on “The Raga Cycle”, a series of albums charting the hours of the day through Hindustani raga. The first installment, Evening Light, was released in March 2026 on Cantaloupe Records. More albums in the series were recorded before he became too ill to continue. They will be released in the years ahead. Donations in his memory can be made to the Michael Harrison Foundation for Just Music at JustMusic.org. Topics 00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:22 Encore Tribute 02:28 Mysticism Book Intro 02:49 Spiritual Music Path 04:32 Conservatory And Tonality 06:37 Daily Raga Practice 12:55 Voice Breath And Wazifa 16:48 Creation As Vibration 20:14 Harmony East And West 24:07 Math Of Consonance 25:32 Temperament Versus Just 28:24 Tuning The Soul Quote 32:03 Piano Retuning Journey 35:54 432 Versus 440 39:56 Music As Universal Religion 46:02 Cage Oliveros Deep Listening 51:16 Commentary And Curriculum 53:08 Teaching Programs 55:26 Closing Thanks And Outro Links Michael Harrison — His Own Work <a hre
- May 14, 20261h 23m
The Great AI Unraveling, Part 2: Tiokasin Ghosthorse & Pooja Prema
This is the second gathering in SAND's ongoing series on AI and the human spirit — and it takes a deliberately different rhythm. Rather than asking "is AI safe?" or "will it take our jobs?", Tiokasin Ghosthorse and Pooja Prema invite us to slow down and ask the deeper questions: What cosmology is AI extending? What is intelligence, really? And what happens when the earth-based, organic, living intelligence of Indigenous and ancestral ways of knowing gets replaced by a synthetic one? A spacious, felt-sense conversation that asks us to remember what a living mind actually is. Timestamps 00:00 — Welcome & framing the deeper questions 00:04 — Opening body practice: tuning into felt sense before speaking 00:07 — Tiokasin: AI as the latest ship on the shore — colonization in a new form 00:17 — "There is no artificial intuition" — what technology cannot replace 00:18 — Pooja: the cosmology behind AI — colonial linearity vs. the curving motherboard of Earth 00:25 — AI as the latest savior narrative — and why that story keeps repeating 00:45 — Who owns the data? Who controls the intelligence? The politics of AI 01:05 — AI as therapist, AI replacing elders — the cost to young people and mental health 01:10 — Ghost in the Machine: how to resist empire over the long game 01:15 — Closing: "Our body is the mystic" — an invitation to make this a living inquiry Guests Tiokasin Ghosthorse is a member of the Cheyenne River Lakota Nation and lifelong Indigenous activist. He is the founder and host of First Voices Radio, which broadcast for 33 years before its final episode in July 2025. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2016, is a National Native American Hall of Fame nominee, and a master musician who performs worldwide. He describes himself simply as "a perfectly flawed human being." He is also featured in SAND's film The Eternal Song. Pooja Prema is a first-generation Indian American writer, multidisciplinary artist, and ritualist from Kerala, South India. Her work weaves ecofeminism, decolonial somatic practice, and animistic cosmologies. She is the founder of The Rites of Passage Project and The Ritual Theatre. Her work has been featured at the Kennedy Center, Ebony Magazine, and NPR. Resources & Links Tiokasin Ghosthorse Akantu Intelligence — website First Voices Radio — archive Featured in The Eternal Song — SAND film Pooja Prema Website: poojaprema.com The Rites of Passage Project The Ritual Theatre Instagram: @thecabinwitch Film referenced Ghost in the Machine — documentary directed by Valerie Veatch, Sundance 2026 — traces the buried history of AI and its roots in eugenics, racism, and colonial power. Featuring Tasheka Lavann on how indigenous nations are resisting data centers and how we resist empire over generations. Concepts discussed</
- May 7, 20261h 1m
The Indigenous Paradigm: Pat McCabe & Lynn Murphy
Originally recorded at Science and Nonduality, 2021 Pat McCabe, also known as Woman Stands Shining, is a Diné elder, ceremonial prayer leader, and international speaker adopted into the Lakota spiritual way of life. In this conversation hosted by Lynn Murphy, Pat offers a profound invitation to examine the foundational assumptions of the modern world paradigm and consider what it might mean to live from a genuinely different understanding of what it is to be human. Drawing on teachings from her clan grandfather, her experience of intergenerational trauma and survival, and her deep inquiry into masculine and feminine principles, Pat maps the territory between the glittering world we are leaving and the green world we are entering. The conversation opens in ceremony and closes with a practice: a morning sunrise offering that anyone can begin today. Lynn Murphy is a strategic advisor for foundations and NGOs working in the geopolitical South. She was a senior fellow and program officer at the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation where she focused on international education and global development. She resigned as a ”conscientious objector” to neocolonial philanthropy. She holds an MA and PhD in international comparative education from Stanford University. She is also a certified Laban/Bartenieff movement analyst. This episode is released in celebration of SAND’s new film featuring Pat McCabe, Little Singer, premiering online May 26-28, 2026, as part of the Eternal Song series. Timestamps 00:00:00 — Introduction 00:01:45 — Lynn Murphy introduces Pat McCabe: Diné nation, Lakota spiritual way, Defend the Sacred alliance 00:05:00 — Pat introduces herself through her clans — clan names as places on the earth, worlds more than this one 00:07:00 — Traveling through worlds: the flood, men and women, and the movement from the glittering world to the green world 00:15:00 — The two paradigms: indigenous versus modern world — "I am a human being, relative to all my relations" 00:34:00 — Trailer for Little Singer — premiering online May 26-28, 2026 — theeternalsong.org/littlesinger 00:35:00 — Masculine and feminine principles: power over versus power with, the sacred hoop, and right relations 00:52:00 — A practice for beginning: the morning sunrise offering and the teaching on consent, sovereignty, and honorable relationship with all beings Resources and Links Pat McCabe — Woman Stands Shining Website: patmccabe.net Little Singer — Eternal Song Series Online premiere: May 26-28, 2026 Three-day event with Diné voices Mentioned in the episode Robin Wall Kimmerer — Braiding Sweetgrass (plant sovereignty, honorable harvest) Lakota spiritual traditions — Seven Generations teaching Diné (Navajo) Nation — Long Walk history, Bosque Redondo concentration camp, 1860s Residential boarding school history — US government and church collaboration Masculine and feminine principles in economics and right relations — ongoing inquiry in Pat's work Episode artwork “Woman Stands Shining” by Namita Contact SAND podcast@scienceandnonduality.com Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member
- Apr 30, 20261h 17m
What Empire Cannot Erase: Fatemeh Keshavarz-Karamustafa, Omid Safi & Mays Imad
Persian Poetry, Radical Love, and the Soul of Iran“The path to God goes through that most difficult of beings, the human being.” – Omid SafiRecorded live at a SAND Community Gathering (April 2026). Watch the full conversation on the SAND Website. We are watching, once again, what empire does: not only to bodies, but to the long memory of a people; to the libraries and sacred sites; to art, language, and the ruins that hold the oldest threads of human spiritual inquiry. We are thinking of the civilization that gave us Rumi, Hafez, Omar Khayyam, Forough Farrokhzad — mystics and rebels and lovers of paradox who understood something about the human soul that we are still, centuries later, trying to catch up to. This gathering invited us to come together: to read poetry aloud, to hear from Iranian voices, to sit with grief and beauty together rather than alone. We work with political and moral vocabulary shaped by Iranian thinkers such as Ali Shariati, who wrote against domination, spiritual emptiness, and the violence of imposed power. We make space for what doesn’t fit into headlines or talking points—the complexity of empire, the difference between a government and its people, the authoritarian forces at work not only abroad but here at home. We also gather with the political inheritance of those who taught generations to resist domination and spiritual emptiness, including Ali Shariati. Guests Omid Safi is a scholar of the Islamic mystical tradition and professor of Islamic Studies at Duke University. He is the author of Memories of Muhammad and Radical Love: Teachings from the Islamic Mystical Tradition, and teaches online courses on Muslim mysticism. He leads contemplative journeys to Turkey, Morocco, and Mecca/Medina through Illuminated Courses. Fatemeh Keshavarz is the Roshan Institute Chair in Persian Language and Literature and Director of the Roshan Institute Center for Persian Studies at the University of Maryland. A poet in Persian and English, she is the author of Reading Mystical Lyric, Recite in the Name of the Red Rose, Jasmine and Stars: Reading More Than Lolita in Tehran, and Lyrics of Life: Sa'di on Love, Cosmopolitanism and Care of the Self. She has spoken at the UN General Assembly and received the Peabody Award for her NPR program on Rumi. Mays Imad, PhD (facilitator) is a neuroscientist, educator, and associate professor at Connecticut College whose work bridges neuroscience, philosophy, and education. An Iraqi immigrant who lived through wars and displacement, she brings both personal and scholarly depth to the themes of trauma, remembrance, and repair through the embodied nervous system. Timestamps 00:00 — Welcome & framing 00:02 — Mays Imad opens: grief, urgency, and love 00:06 — Introducing Omid Safi & Fatemeh Keshavarz 00:07 — Saadi, Rumi, and the Persian tradition 00:12 — The war on Iran: what is being destroyed 00:21 — Don't bypass grief — the Persian mystics knew this 00:27 — Saadi on truth, power, and interconnection 00:32 — Fatemeh: togetherness, invisibilizati
- Apr 23, 20261h 29m
The Great AI Unraveling: Tristan Harris
Recorded live at SAND Community Gathering (April 2026). Watch the full conversion on the SAND Website. SAND has launched a special series on Artificial Intelligence. To premiere this series, we spoke with tech ethicist Tristan Harris—co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology. In this conversation, we explored his warnings about the impending age of AI. According to Harris, the current trajectory isn’t just menacing the economy, but fundamentally rewiring human relationships, altering parenting and mental health, potentially accelerating climate collapse, and even threatening the very fabric of society. We inquired into ways to remain human in an era where machines can simulate empathy, displace our labor, and potentially outmaneuver us. Topics 00:00 Welcome and Context 00:42 Why This AI Talk 01:32 Introducing Tristan Harris 03:15 Setting the Basics 04:10 From Narrow to New AI 06:18 Rubber Band Reality Check 08:31 Transformers and Scaling 11:00 Infinity Upside and Risk 14:49 Defining AGI and ASI 18:18 Jagged Capabilities and Hype 21:33 Singularity and Anti Human Drift 23:26 Incentives Behind the Future 27:29 The Intelligence Curse 32:22 Devaluing Humans and Consensus 37:56 Planetary Costs of Data Centers 39:41 Why We Keep Building It 42:46 Extinction Risk and Safety Math 45:20 AI in War and Arms Race 47:36 Leaders Unaware of Runaway Signs 48:26 Leaders Fear AI Power 49:02 Nuclear War Game Theory 49:41 Infinite Games Mindset 51:11 AI as Extractive Empire 52:27 From Shadow to Action 53:55 Building the Human Movement 57:25 Four-Step Action Plan 59:44 Grassroots Wins and Bans 01:02:18 Nonprofit Progress and Lawsuits 01:07:51 Talking to Teens Effectively 01:10:05 Governance and Citizen Assemblies 01:12:19 Spiritual Hopes vs Incentives 01:15:12 Accelerationism and Choice 01:18:22 Policy Maker Ten Minute Brief 01:21:26 Countering Transhumanist Ideology 01:23:45 Changing Culture and Incentives 01:27:12 Final Reflections and Gratitude
- Apr 16, 202656 min
Mongolian Dharma Poetry: Simon Wickhamsmith
Simon Wickhamsmith is a Buddhist monk turned scholar, computer musician, and one of the only translators of Mongolian literature into English. He teaches in the Writing Program at Rutgers University and has been traveling back and forth to Mongolia since 2006. In this conversation he traces his spiritual path from Catholicism through Tibetan Buddhism and back to medieval Christian mysticism, introduces the Mongolian poet Mend-Ooyo, and takes us deep into the life and poetry of the 19th century Buddhist polymath Danzanravjaa — a figure Simon considers his primary teacher — including a live reading of the poem Twos, a stunning meditation on nonduality from the Mongolian steppe. Topics 00:00 — Introduction 00:02 — Simon's spiritual path: Catholicism, Opus Dei, the Desert Fathers, and Zen 00:04 — Discovering Tibetan Buddhism, Samye Ling monastery in Scotland, and ordaining as a monk 00:06 — The three-year retreat, his mother's illness, and returning to the world 00:07 — Returning to medieval Christian mysticism: Julian of Norwich, Meister Eckhart, The Cloud of Unknowing 00:10 — How SAND connected with Mend-Ooyo in Mongolia — and how Simon met him 00:12 — Teaching himself Mongolian by translating Danzanravjaa's complete works 00:13 — Introducing Mend-Ooyo: born 1952 into a nomadic herding family, poet and cultural guardian of Mongolia 00:16 — The underground literary group GAL (Fire) and Mend-Ooyo's role in Mongolian literary culture 00:18 — Mend-Ooyo's mission: reconnecting Mongolia to its nomadic heritage after Soviet collapse 00:19 — Mend-Ooyo's new novel The Solitary Tree: Robin Hood, shamanism, Buddhism, and falcons 00:23 — Who was Danzanravjaa? Born in the Gobi Desert, recognized as the fifth reincarnation of the Noyon Hutagt 00:26 — Danzanravjaa's approach: spontaneous, impromptu poetry as dharma teaching 00:28 — Mongolia's first traveling theater troupe and the poems as dictated teachings 00:31 — Live reading and analysis of Perfect Qualities — a love poem, a guru poem, and a poem of nonduality simultaneously 00:33 — The three levels of meaning in Danzanravjaa's poetry: outer, inner, and secret 00:38 — Bhakti yoga, Ram Dass, Maharaji, and the connection to direct transmission beyond doctrine 00:41 — Danzanravjaa and the land: the Shambhala vortex at Hamriin Hiid 00:44 — Horses, landscape, and the spiritual path in his poetry 00:45 — Simon's personal experience of the Shambhala site and animist relationship to land 00:49 — If Danzanravjaa were alive today: his anti-Manchu politics and primary focus on deepening practice 00:50 — Live reading of the poem Twos — nonduality in full 00:54 — On translation: humor, layers of meaning, and the paradox of the poem itself Resources & Links Simon Wickhamsmith Rutgers University faculty page Suncranes and Other Stories: Modern Mongolian Short Fiction — Columbia University Press, 2021 Politics and Literature in Mongolia (1921–1948) — Amsterdam University Press, 2020 The Hidden Life of the Sixth Dalai Lama — Lexington Books, 2011 Mend-Ooyo Gombojav Official website: mend-ooyo.mn Altan Ovoo (Golden Hill) — translated by Simon Wickhamsmith Gegeenten (The Holy One) — novel about Danzanravjaa The Solitary Tree — Mend-Ooyo's most recent novel, published 2025, translated by Simon Wickhamsmith <a href="https://en
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About Sounds of SAND
Sounds of SAND invites listeners into a contemplative journey through the infinite cycles of existence - from its raw beauty to its deepest mysteries, from its intricate complexity to its profound wonder. Through intimate conversations, thought-provoking interviews, poetic readings, and carefully curated music, we weave together ancient wisdom with lived experience, creating a tapestry of sound that honors the great questions of being
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