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Precision Animal Training: Daily Summaries Delivered
by Kirsten Kraljevic
Precision Animal Training is the podcast diving deep into the science and precision of animal behavior modification, hosted by expert trainer Kirsten Kraljevic and pioneering behaviorist Dr. Bob Bailey. Rooted in the legendary Bailey chicken workshops—developed by Bob and Marian Bailey using operant conditioning, positive reinforcement, stimulus control, and razor-sharp timing—this show delivers practical insights on observation, data collection, mechanical skills, and effective training techniques for any species. Through engaging stories, historical lessons from marine mammal programs to chicken camps, and actionable discussions, it empowers trainers of dogs, birds, exotics, and beyond while highlighting how these principles enhance human learning, leadership, communication, and personal development. Ideal for beginners building curiosity-driven skills or seasoned professionals honing precision and timing, Precision Animal Training offers evidence-based wisdom, inspiration, and lifelong learning—proving that mastering training fundamentals, even with a chicken, can transform the way you shape behavior forever.
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- 3 weeks ago53 min
Prevention Beats Extinction: Smarter Dog Training with Don Hanson
Kirsten has a way of describing how modern dog training grew up, and it comes in three phases. First the scientific one, when the Brelands' and Baileys' work came through the chicken workshops and the field found out there was a science underneath it. Then the professional one, when it turned out that loving animals is not a business plan. And now the ethical one. Don Hanson has lived all three of them, and because he is a prolific writer, he wrote them down while they were happening. Thirty years of this field's history exists in his archive whether the field asked for it or not.Don met Bob at his first APDT conference in Valley Forge, signed up for a week in Arkansas before he left the building, and went back the following year for the intermediate course. He joins Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey to talk about what actually changed and what stubbornly has not. Along the way: the Orlando conference where sixty-odd famous dog trainers chased chickens up and down the tables and Bob describes it as the greatest thing since the Keystone Cops, the afternoon Bob stood at the podium with what Don calls an elven and satanic grin and told the class to extinguish everything they had just built, the chicken named Fang that Carolyn Clark tamed and one of Don's staff later requested on purpose, and Keller Breland in a bar in 1962, half inebriated and discouraged, because he had won field championships with this method and all anybody wanted to know was where he bought the dog.3 Key Takeaways1. Do not reinforce what you do not want. Bob's company ran a five year study on mechanical skills in the 1960s and found that trainer error was the single biggest thing slowing a trainer down. Reinforcing too early, too late, or reinforcing the wrong thing entirely. His mantra came out of that: if you miss a behavior you wanted, fine, it will come around again. Just do not mess up.2. Prevention beats extinction, and it is not close. This is why Don would rather teach a puppy class than a class full of older dogs. Nobody reinforces the jumping and the biting and the stealing on purpose, but they have usually been doing it for months by the time they call. Extinguishing that costs far more time and energy than never building it. Worse if the behavior you accidentally reinforced is natural for the species.3. Knowing it and being able to do it are different things, and the field keeps confusing them. Don changed his credentials in 2022 specifically to a body that tests skills as well as knowledge, after being told by other organizations that testing skills is either too hard or not important. His evidence is a cup. Bob spent a morning teaching him how to move one, Don thought it was beneath him, and by lunch it had sunk in.Quick Lessons1. Curiosity is the trait that separates the people who keep getting better. Bob found it at five years old drawing his finger across a column of ants in Michigan. Don found it in his thirties with a first puppy and no idea what he was doing.2. If you do not evolve you become obsolete. Don's pet peeve is trainers who resist continuing education. You can get credits online now. He used to drive six hours.3. Mechanical skills still have to be learned in person, with your hands, ideally with a chicken. Everything else has moved online. That has not.4. This field moves slowly because people attach their ego to their method. Question how somebody trains and they hear it as an insult to them personally. The Brelands waited twenty years and died waiting.5. Reach the client before they get the dog. Don offers a free consultation to families who are only thinking about it, and some of them walk out having decided not to yet. That is a good outcome.6. The dog is teaching you too. Don stopped saying training and started saying teaching. His last dog had his entire staff trained to rub her belly the moment they walked in, and none of them noticed it happening.Resources mentionedDon Hanson's writing, classes and his chronological history of modern animal training: forcefreepets.comPet Professional GuildPet Professional Accreditation BoardOne more thingOctober is Bob's birthday month and this one is his 90th. Kirsten is celebrating all month. If you have a story, a message, or something you want played on the show, send it to kirsten@mychickenworkshops.com.Learn about the Chicken Workshops and join the wai
- 4 weeks ago40 min
Shelley and Mike Wood On Scaling Animal Training Across Nine Countries
Mike Wood interviewed Shelley for a job in the Florida Keys on a glass bottom boat. They were both married to other people. Years later, both divorced, he hired her again to come to Mexico, and that is where it turned into a marriage. It is also where two trainers with one dolphin enclosure turned into close to thirty facilities in nine countries with more than two thousand employees.Shelley and Mike join Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey for a conversation that runs from an old Florida mom-and-pop attraction to a backyard beehive. Mike started at Theater of the Sea in 1975 after leaving a farm in Maryland, back when the job was cleaning bathrooms, raking pathways, cutting fish, and doing the show. Shelley came out of the Northwoods of Wisconsin with a biology degree and one goal, which was to work outside and stop being cold. Neither of them set out to train marine mammals. Both of them ended up changing how the industry does it. Along the way: why putting people in the water with dolphins killed punishment overnight, what happens when you promise investors a trained dolphin in three months, and the afternoon Shelley spent watching Bob scuba dive off Cozumel after he casually mentioned his doctor would not approve.3 Key Takeaways1. Safety first, then motivation, and never coercion. Shelley's frame for everything under their care: it has to be safe for the animal and for every human near it, and then it has to be fun. Nobody has to do anything. They participate because the consequence is worth participating for. That is not a soft position. It is the only thing that works when a stranger is in the water with your dolphin.2. Teaching is a different skill than doing, and knowing it is not the same as being able to hand it over. Shelley could handle the animals and she could coach people, and she still could not teach. Her words. That gap is what sent her to Bob, over and over, by phone and email, sometimes twice on the same question. Once you are teaching, you have to understand the science at a level you never needed when you were only applying it.3. The science is already done. Your job is to adapt it, not reinvent it. What gets tweaked is the application across species and environments, and that is where the trainer's experience lives. Everything underneath it has been settled for decades, which is exactly why it scales.Quick Lessons1. The old model was secrecy. If you knew how to train well, you guarded it, because that was your job security. There was no science in it, just whatever your mentor did.2. Putting humans in the water changed the method overnight. Negative reinforcement and punishment were both on the table in Mike's early years. Neither survives a swim program.3. If it is not repeatable, it does not survive growth. Two trainers can stay consistent by talking to each other. Two thousand employees across nine countries and multiple languages cannot.4. Go to the source. With plenty of resources available in the marine mammal world, they went to the science itself instead, and Shelley calls it the best choice they ever made.5. Hire for the whole job, not the fantasy of it. Plenty of people wanted to play with dolphins. Mike hired the ones who could take the heat, the hours, and the bathrooms.6. The principles travel. Mike solved a neighbor's bee problem by dipping water out of their pool, setting up stations beside it, and walking those stations back onto his own property. Same craft, smaller animal.Resources mentionedShelley Wood: shelleywood6@gmail.comOne more thingOctober is Bob's birthday month and this one is his 90th. Kirsten is celebrating all month. Send a story, a message, or something to play on the show to kirsten@mychickenworkshops.com. The Team Bob dolphin shirt is on her website.
- Oct 1, 202643 min
Three Skill Sets: Veronica Boutelle on Training, Teaching and Business
Bob Bailey has been watching this field for sixty or seventy years, and I have been watching it with him, and his verdict is blunt. More dog businesses have failed on the business end than on the dog training end. Veronica Boutelle watched the same thing happen from the other side. She was Director of Behavior and Training at the San Francisco SPCA, where Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers ran out of her department, and she would check in with graduates a year later and find them back in the careers they had tried to escape, or picking up part-time work to make rent. Not because they could not train. Because nobody had taught them how to run the thing.So she built it. Veronica and founding partner Gina Phairas launched dogbiz in late 2003 and are coming up on twenty-five years of teaching trainers the part that keeps the lights on. In this conversation Veronica tells Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey how the SF SPCA brought Chicken Camp to San Francisco by selling tickets to local trainers to cover it, how Bob flew out to headline her grand opening with a night of newly declassified government stories and the raven cameras, and how COVID turned a hastily built free six week program called Survive and Thrive into two thousand trainers from around the world and then into Thrive, the group coaching program still running today. She also says the thing most positive reinforcement trainers need to hear about their rates, and it is not comfortable.3 Key Takeaways1. You are running three businesses at once, whether you know it or not. Training animals is one skill set. Coaching the humans who live with the animal is a second, and if you do not change the person's behavior nothing you do with the dog sticks. Running the business is a third. Most trainers invest continuing education in the first one only.2. Business is a learnable skill set, not a personality trait. By Veronica's count, ten percent or fewer of positive reinforcement trainers come into this naturally entrepreneurial. The rest arrive loving dogs, discover there are no jobs, and realize they have to own something. In her words, these skills are as learnable as the four quadrants, and twenty-five years of watching terrified trainers turn confident is the proof.3. Your low rate is a message, and it is not the one you think. Positive reinforcement trainers undervalue themselves out of ethics and guilt, then cannot understand why the client went to a shock jock first. Veronica's answer: because you charged half the price, so they assumed you were not as good, and your marketing never suggested change was possible. Not guaranteeing outcomes is not the same as refusing to say you can help.Quick Lessons1. Put your own mask on first. If you want to help the most dogs over the longest career, the business has to be financially sustainable. It is very hard to make good decisions under financial stress.2. Stop running it as a hobby business. A professional service business and a deep love of dogs are not in conflict. Altruism and an entrepreneurial mindset can live in the same person.3. Social media is the wrong first basket. A brand new business putting all its marketing there is mostly marketing to friends and family. Build the audience before you count on it.4. Inconsistent marketing is why the cycle repeats. Most trainers market hard when they are desperate, get comfortable, take their foot off the gas, and drop again.5. Community beats competition. When trainers stopped treating each other as competitors, progress on individual businesses got bigger and faster.6. Continuing education counts in all three areas. Trainers go back to Chicken Camp more than once because they are a different trainer each time. Business works the same Resources mentioneddogbizsuccess.comdogbizsuccess.com/thriveBusiness Success Snapshot, free, under three minutes: quiz.dogbizsuccess.comOne More ThingOctober is Bob's birthday month, and this one is his 90th. Kirsten is celebrating all month. If you have a story, a message, or something you want recorded and played on the show, email kirsten@mychickenworkshops.com.
- Sep 24, 202628 min
Carolark, Fang and Chickens In A Hotel with Carolyn Clark
After Marian Bailey died, Dr. Bob Bailey was ready to be done. He had promised her on her deathbed that he would keep teaching, and then he got discouraged enough to start looking at other things he could do with his time. Two women talked him out of it. Cheryl Trotter drove up from Houston and Carolyn Clark came down from Canada, and between them they told him they would help and they would not let him quit. Everything that came after, Sweden, Japan, China, and the workshops that built a generation of trainers, happened because those two would not let go of it.Carolyn joins Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey from near Ottawa, Ontario. She started as a schoolteacher who kept two chickens named Plum and Henrietta in the back of her classroom, came through Bob's chicken class as a student, and ended up his teaching assistant in Hot Springs. She opened Carolark Dog Training in 1992, named for Carol and Clark, and built it into one of the first schools in North America to teach clicker training and puppy socialization, a room that would go on to host Bob Bailey, Karen Pryor, Turid Rugaas, and Kay Laurence. Then she handed the company to her own staff so she could travel and teach. Carolark is still running in the Ottawa area today under owners who kept the name and kept the methods. Along the way there was a chicken named Fang that nailed Carolyn hard enough that she named it, banks of chickens wheeled out to a hotel parking garage every night in Hot Springs, homemade smell filters, a night watchman who cost Bob two thousand dollars, and a little yellow card that trainers still line up to have signed.3 Key Takeaways1. Behavior is lawful. Kirsten came up on old-fashioned methods and had a lot to unlearn. What changed everything was Bob and Carolyn redirecting her every time she wanted to explain a dog by what had happened to it in the past. Behavior is lawful. It is science. You can work with that. You cannot work with a story.2. Reinforce the people, not just the animals. Carolyn worked the room. A wink and a quiet "that was very good" while a student thought nobody was watching. Bob handed out little yellow cards to anyone who did something well, and students lined up at the end of the week to get them signed. Both of them will tell you the same thing: people need to be caught doing what they enjoy and pointed in that direction.3. The difficult animal is the one that makes you good. Fang was fierce. Fang nailed Carolyn and got named for it, and then went on to a long career terrorizing new trainers and fixing their timing. An easy bird lets you stay sloppy.Quick Lessons1. Nobody builds a career in this alone. Bob almost stopped, and two people would not let him.2. Most of the work is the part nobody sees. Students saw cages sitting at the back of the room. Bob saw a van, a trailer, a thousand pounds of feed, and several days on the road before the class ever started.3. Take it outside your own discipline. Carolyn brought chickens into an elementary classroom and taught kids how to handle them, and she used the same reinforcement principles on the people in her dog classes as on the dogs.4. Say yes to the road. Carolyn gave her company to her staff so she could travel and teach, and that decision is why her reach went past Ottawa.5. Build it so it outlives you. Carolark has changed hands more than once and still carries the name and the positive methods. That is what a legacy actually looks like.6. Behavior is lawful, and reinforcement is a process.
- Sep 16, 202620 min
Vicky Darnell & Tiz: From Chicken Workshop to UKC Grand Champion
Vicky Darnell did not want the puppy. The plan was to get herself trained up first and then bring another dog into the house, and that is not how it worked out. Tiz came home early. Three weeks later Vicky was sitting in her first Chicken Workshop. What she carried back to Chicagoland was not a chicken trick. It was timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement, and the nerve to stop a session that is going sideways instead of hoping it comes around. Tiz started trialing shortly after she turned six months old, the youngest age a dog can compete in UKC Nosework, and finished her Grand Champion at eleven months.Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey talk with Vicky about what actually transferred from the bird room to the trial floor. Vicky has run dog sporting events for thirteen years and has taken the discrimination class twice, and she still describes the workshop the way everyone does once they have been through it: you cannot comprehend it until you are standing there. Bob puts the principle plainly. You get what you reinforce, not what you want. Kirsten tells on Vicky for walking the hallway between the classroom and the bird room muttering seven seconds to herself, then watched her run that same clock at a nosework trial months later.3 Key Takeaways 1. Stop bad training instead of riding it out.Vicky credits the workshop with giving her permission to interrupt. The instinct in most training halls is to push on and tell yourself you will get there eventually. What you are actually doing is paying for the wrong behavior while you wait. Interrupt it, rethink what you are asking for, and go again.2. Seven seconds is the clock. If what you are doing is not working inside about seven seconds, change something. Vicky said it out loud to herself carrying a bird across the hall until it stuck, and she was still running that clock when Kirsten watched her compete. It is the smallest, most portable thing in this episode and you can use it in your next session.3. You get what you reinforce, not what you want. Dr. Bob Bailey's point is that precision is available to anyone willing to ask for it, and that data gathered and used properly speeds training up rather than slowing it down. Reinforce sloppy work and sloppy work is what you have trained.Quick Training Lessons From The EpisodeHere are the wrap-up lessons that Kirsten wanted listeners to remember from this episode:1. Set a goal that is a little past your reach. Vicky picked a title most people would call impossible for a puppy, then went and got it. The goal is what organizes every session that comes after it.2. Skills transfer. Species do not matter. Timing, criteria, and rate of reinforcement work the same on a chicken, on a Labrador, and on whatever animal and discipline you care about most.3. The chicken is the most honest coach you will ever have, and the kindest. It is not about training a chicken. It is that the exercises Bob and Marian Breland curated put you and that bird through something that shows you exactly what you need to work on, with no opinion about you attached.4. Go back even when you are good at this. Vicky runs trials for a living and got whipped by a chicken. Thirteen years in the ring is not the same as five seconds behind a bird.5. Do the repetitions and measure them. Bob's case for data is that measuring gets you there faster, not slower.
- Sep 10, 202658 min
The Magic of Reinforcement: Dr. Ian Dunbar on Animal Training’s Past, Present and Future
On this episode of Precision Animal Training, hosts Kirsten Kraljevic and Dr. Bob Bailey sit down with renowned Veterinary Behaviorist Dr. Ian Dunbar for a wide-ranging conversation on how animal training has evolved. Dr. Dunbar traces his path from watching animals as a child to pioneering puppy classes and putting early socialization at the center of good training. The discussion returns again and again to positive reinforcement, the power of shaping small improvements, and the need for trainers to observe real behavior and use simple, measurable data. Dr. Bailey and Dr. Dunbar talk about the Brelands’ work with chickens as a training model and argue that trainers should rely less on tools and more on clear communication between people and animals. The episode is a reminder to notice small wins and keep training scientific and enjoyable.3 Key Takeaways 1. Observation and real-world practice come first. Dr. Dunbar and Dr. Bob Bailey both say effective training starts with watching animals in everyday settings. Videos and theory help, but they are no substitute for standing there, watching, and working with the animal in front of you. That direct practice is how trainers learn how animals actually respond and learn.2. Positive reinforcement and shaping still do the heavy lifting. A core theme is that small, reinforced improvements add up. Dr. Dunbar talks about shaping behavior in tiny steps. Dr. Bailey keeps returning to one idea: make it worthwhile for the animal to play the game. Praise and consistent reinforcement of the behaviors you want often matter more than extra food or corrections.3. Creativity and ongoing learning keep trainers sharp. Both guests stress staying flexible across species. Working with cats, chickens, or other animals besides dogs stretches your eye and your timing. Kirsten and her guests encourage trainers to keep experimenting and adjusting to the individual animal. That habit produces better results and a better relationshipQuick Training Lessons From The EpisodeHere are the wrap-up lessons that Kirsten wanted listeners to remember from this episode:1. Take the leash off. Watch and train animals in a more natural state so you can see real behavior change. 2. Watch the animal in front of you, not only videos. Hands-on observation is where the learning happens. 3. Learn to shape and reinforce the right behaviors. Every small improvement counts, and praise matters. 4. Reinforce good behavior in daily life. Smiles, words, and consistent feedback do more than isolated sessions. 5. Phase out tools as you go. The goal is an animal that responds even to a quiet, neutral cue. 6. Training is a relationship plus repetition. Praise often, keep sessions positive, and enjoy the work. 7. These skills apply across species. The same game of observation and reinforcement works with dogs, cats, and chickens. 8. Stay present. Turn off distractions and engage with the animal in front of you. Progress starts there.
- Sep 2, 202627 min
The Humbling Path to Becoming a Top Dog Trainer with Chickens and Dr. Viviane Thebe
In this episode of the Precision Animal Training Podcast, host Kirsten Kraljevic sits down with Dr. Viviane Thebe from Germany, a trainer known for pioneering work with both chickens and dogs. The conversation follows her path from veterinary medicine into animal behavior, the workshops in Sweden that changed how she saw training, and the practical reality of teaching while caring for her young son. Listeners hear how those early chicken workshops grew in Germany and why she has stayed focused on rapid, precise training. Dr. Thebe also talks about founding a “top trainers” organization that uses friendly competition to push skill and spark new ideas. Stories from workshops and international conferences show why hands-on practice, humility, and sharing methods across species keep the field moving forward. The episode ends with a look at her influence and the collaborative spirit that still drives better training.Viviane Theby’s main website in Germany is the Tierakademie Scheuerhof: https://www.tierakademie.de/She also runs the German dog-trainer education site: https://ausbildung.tierakademie.de/3 Key Takeaways 1. Humility and Growth in Training No matter the background or years of experience, real skill in animal training grows from humility and a willingness to keep learning. Dr. Thebe’s first chicken workshops made it obvious how much she still did not know. That realization is a reminder that ongoing education and honest self-assessment matter for every trainer.2. The Power of Practical Workshops Hands-on work, especially with chickens, delivers immediate and unfiltered feedback. These workshops sharpen timing, precision, and the ability to build a solid training plan. They also change how trainers see what is possible with any animal.3. Building Confidence and Community Supportive groups that give trainers a place to demonstrate skill and measure progress raise the bar for everyone. Dr. Thebe’s “top trainers” effort shows how structured programs and friendly competition help people see their own growth and lift standards across the profession.Quick Training Lessons From The EpisodeHere are the wrap-up lessons that Kirsten wanted listeners to remember from this episode:- Chicken training workshops are humbling and transformative. Real growth starts when you see how much there is still to learn.- Fast training is not only about speed. It is planning, precision, and knowing what animal learning can actually deliver.- Demonstrating skill builds confidence. Giving trainers a way to show what they can do raises the standard for the whole field.- A community of dedicated trainers makes the work feel bigger than any single person.- Methods learned with chickens transfer directly to other species and make you a stronger trainer across the board.- Sharing knowledge and supporting others keeps the most effective methods alive and growing.
- Aug 19, 202653 min
Mechanics Matter: Why Fundamentals Are Essential for Trainers with Jean Donaldson
In this episode of Precision Animal Training, host Kirsten Kraljevic welcomes Jean Donaldson and Dr. Bob Bailey to explore the evolution of animal training education. The conversation highlights Jean Donaldson’s groundbreaking work founding the Academy for Dog Trainers and the impact of introducing rigorous training plans and standardized curricula. The discussion moves through the transition from traditional, aversive-based dog training to science-based methods, emphasizing the importance of technical skill and well-vetted plans. The guests reflect on how critical fundamentals, repetition, and objective measurement are for developing competent trainers and helping pet owners succeed. They also address challenges in motivating owners, the pitfalls of industry gimmicks, and the importance of accurate scientific thinking. The episode closes with a recognition of the past innovators who shaped the field and encouragement for newer generations to embrace strong mechanics and thoughtful methodologies3 Key Takeaways 1. The Importance of Fundamentals: Strong foundational skills in animal training are essential. The episode highlights that while new techniques and marketing trends may emerge, mastering core mechanics and sound training plans remains critical for both professional trainers and pet owners alike. 2. Efficiency and Technique Matter Most: Efficient, well-vetted training methods lead to better outcomes. The discussion emphasizes that effective results come from high-quality technique and proper execution rather than from gimmicks or shortcuts. In the context of pet owners, trainers need to focus on teaching what matters most and ensure clients can achieve practical success. 3. Shift from Tradition to Science-Based Training: The conversation showcases the field’s evolution from tradition-based methods to evidence-driven practices. Listeners are reminded of the work it takes to move away from outdated, aversive techniques and toward positive, science-centered approaches that prioritize both animal welfare and owner satisfaction.Quick Training Lessons From The EpisodeHere are the wrap-up lessons that Kirsten wanted listeners to remember from this episode:1. Fundamentals matter - master your mechanics, rate, criteria, and sound training plans before chasing new gimmicks.2. Competence comes from hands-on practice, not just theory or online content; good technique must be developed and checked in real-world situations.3. Efficiency in training is crucial, especially for owners who need fast results to keep motivation high and dogs safely in homes.4. True progress in the industry comes from standing on the shoulders of those who challenged old methods and devoted their lives to developing effective, humane training.5. Science should drive training decisions, not tradition or marketing; critical thinking and well-vetted plans always outperform flashy shortcuts.6. Wanting real results requires disciplined effort—a wish alone changes nothing; apply yourself fully if you want to see true behavioral change.7. The legacy of great trainers is measured by their impact on future generations, so keep learning, sharing, and refining your craft as the field moves forward.
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About Precision Animal Training
Precision Animal Training is the podcast diving deep into the science and precision of animal behavior modification, hosted by expert trainer Kirsten Kraljevic and pioneering behaviorist Dr. Bob Bailey. Rooted in the legendary Bailey chicken workshops—developed by Bob and Marian Bailey using operant conditioning, positive reinforcement, stimulus control, and razor-sharp timing—this show delivers practical insights on observation, data collection, mechanical skills, and effective training techniques for any species. Through engaging stories, historical lessons from marine mammal programs to chicken camps, and actionable discussions, it empowers trainers of dogs, birds, exotics, and beyond while highlighting how these principles enhance human learning, leadership, communication, and personal development. Ideal for beginners building curiosity-driven skills or seasoned professionals honing precision and timing, Precision Animal Training offers evidence-based wisdom, inspiration, and lifelong learning—proving that mastering training fundamentals, even with a chicken, can transform the way you shape behavior forever.
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