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by Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate.
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- 2 days ago56 min
Anthropic Wants to Slow AI Down & Instinct Wants a $10B Valuation. Is It Because They're Losing? Is Dario Amodei Actually Right?
Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.In this episode:- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investorChapters:00:00 Intro01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in TechWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- 1 weeks ago51 min
iPhone Duo, Meta Muse & Why AI Finally Scared Dave Morin
Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open).Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards.In this episode:- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budgetChapters:00:00 Trailer01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 198227:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match ProblemWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/Connect with us here:Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessinDave Morin: https://x.com/davemorinJessica Lessin: https://x.com/JessicalessinBrit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
- 2 weeks ago55 min
AI Agents Are Going Rogue. Should We Be Worried?
Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave3:21 The recursive Sam loop8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents?19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money?24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents?28:46 Suds joins the podcast33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva?51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on FacebookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
- 3 weeks ago54 min
Meta’s $17B Reckoning & Why Parents Can’t Compete With Big Tech's Algorithm
Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era.Chapters:0:00 Episode start1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful?38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell 49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-offWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/6HO6naKM8yEConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
- Aug 21, 202656 min
Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash
Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:00 Episode start4:00 This week in AI5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions?11:00 The agentic commerce bet14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies?30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history”33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade?36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism37:30 Grok enters the AI race41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable45:00 The AI data center backlash47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks”48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure?53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL businessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
- Aug 14, 202658 min
Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng
A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside?Chapters0:00 Episode trailer1:24 Episode start1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust?11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk?34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates?39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out?42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook49:14 What actually happened with Airtable50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense57:15 Final thoughts & sign-offWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
- Aug 7, 202655 min
Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era
Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer1:07 Episode Start2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash40:53 Why People Still Hate AI43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma53:40 Next Week on More or LessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
- Jul 31, 202659 min
Zuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down
New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:23 Episode start9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning54:57 Book The Conference Before You're InvitedWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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About More or Less
Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate.
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