The Finland myth, East Asia’s rise, and what makes education systems work with Montserrat Gomendio (Ep 68)

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat (Montse) Gomendio, a former Secretary of State for Education in Spain.  Montse is also a former Deputy Director of Education for the OECD, the international organization that administers the PISA test. Drawing on global data, including from PISA, Montse explains why some education systems consistently perform well while others struggle to improve. Montse discusses the three key drivers of effective education systems:  teacher quality, a knowledge-rich curriculum, and strong assessments aligned with that curriculum.  Anna and Montse discuss what large-scale international assessments like PISA can (and can’t) tell us. The conversation also explores why education reform is so difficult to implement, what high-performing systems right like those in East Asia and Estonia get right, and whether Finland’s reputation as a model system is supported by evidence. This is a fascinating conversation that will appeal to educators, policymakers, and anyone interested in what actually drives improvement in education systems. This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke MONTSERRAT GOMENDIO’S BOOK (OPEN ACCESS) Dire Straits-Education Reforms: Ideology, Vested Interests and Evidence: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0332 SHORT COURSE  La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144 TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:55] The role of Deputy Director of Education at the OCED [00:06:21] What is the purpose of PISA? [00:07:29] How is PISA different from TIMSS or PIRLS? [00:12:54] What is an appropriate definition of equity? [00:15:06] Measures that improve educational equity [00:19:57] The perplexing narrative about Finland as a top performer [00:28:42] Why do East Asian countries perform so well? [00:33:00] The importance of content knowledge [00:36:06] Misleading recommendations from the OECD [00:37:16] After-school tutoring in East Asian countries [00:41:36] Why implementation in different countries can be difficult: Latin America [00:46:18] Reducing class size: popular and expensive, but ineffective [00:48:08] What makes an effective teacher? [00:52:01] A look at Estonia’s education system [00:54:14] Why is it so hard to implement reforms even when they are evidence-based? [01:02:23] Preventing the reversal of good education policies [01:06:31] What are the main components that make an effective education system? RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pxzyk-19b773f Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math? https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107 From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97 Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-68-transcript   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social