Desirable difficulties for learning with Elizabeth Bjork and Robert Bjork (Ep 66)

In this episode, Anna is joined by two world-renowned experts in human memory and learning, Dr. Elizabeth Bjork and Dr. Robert Bjork, to explore what makes a difficulty desirable in learning. They explain why some learning strategies that feel effortful often leads to stronger, longer-lasting retention while strategies that feel easy, like rereading or rewatching lectures without self-testing, or cramming, can create an illusion of mastery. The conversation unpacks retrieval practice, spacing, interleaving, variation, and addresses common misconceptions about what makes a difficulty desirable, and why what looks like slow progress in the short term may actually lead to more durable learning in the long-term. This episode will be of interest to educators at all levels and is especially important for high school and university students and their teachers who want to develop effective study habits grounded in science. This episode is also available at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke   SHORT COURSE  La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:48] Guests’ background: moving from math to psychology [00:09:04] Researching effective learning techniques [00:10:35] Who does this research apply to? [00:14:47] The introduction of ‘Desirable difficulties’ [00:18:40] Understanding desirable difficulties [00:20:13] Importance of retrieval practice [00:30:46] The spacing effect [00:33:43] Variation and the benefits for students [00:36:55] Retrieval practice is the anchor in desirable difficulties [00:43:19] Blocking and interleaving [00:51:58] Final Thoughts   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df How we learn: Naïve, purposeful, and deliberate practice with Stephen Chew https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-mrwn2-18adce0 Powerful teaching with Patrice Bain https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d77g4-14602e3 How to excel in math and other tough subjects with Barbara Oakley https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bqs8p-14068f2 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-66-transcript MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic   Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social