Daniel Rachel: How Do We Confront the Hatred in Rock Music?

In this episode, TO BE CONTINUED... steps outside its usual format for a podcast exchange with Martini Judaism, also hosted by Rabbi Jeff Salkin. He speaks with author Daniel Rachel about This Ain't Rock 'n' Roll: Pop Music, the Swastika and the Third Reich, a history of something that has been hiding in plain sight for more than 60 years.  The conversation runs from the Beatles and John Lennon's private Nazi memorabilia collection, through David Bowie's years-long obsession with the Aryan ideal and Eric Clapton's admiration for Enoch Powell, to the punk scene's casual use of Holocaust imagery — the Sex Pistols' "Belsen Was a Gas," and Joy Division taking their name from the women forced into brothels in the camps. Rachel and Salkin also work through the paradox of Jewish musicians, from the Ramones to Blondie to Kiss, using the same symbols, and consider how gaps in Holocaust education on both sides of the Atlantic help explain it. They turn to Roger Waters, Michael Jackson, and Kanye West, and ask why it took governments rather than rock fans to finally draw a line. Rachel's answer to the silence is unsparing and includes himself: "I think we're all complicit." Daniel Rachel was born in Birmingham, England and raised in a progressive Jewish household. He wrote his first song when he was sixteen and was the lead-singer of Rachels Basement, which he formed in his early twenties. He released two solo albums in 2001 and 2006. Daniel is also an award-winning and bestselling author. Isle of Noise: Conversations with Great British Songwriters was his first book. His latest book, published in early 2026, This Ain’t Rock ‘n’ Roll: Pop Music, the Swastika and the Third Reich, has received rave reviews and standing room only appearances. Daniel co-authored several other books as well. He has served as a consultant and appeared in several cultural documentaries. Daniel lives in north London with his partner and three children.   Transcript: Today’s episode is a little different—and there’s a reason. TO BE CONTINUED... is participating in a podcast exchange with Martini Judaism, which is another podcast I host. Podcast exchanges are a popular way for podcasts with related subject matter to introduce their audiences to conversations they might not otherwise hear. Most episodes of TO BE CONTINUED... explore the Holocaust through the experiences of 2G and 3G descendants and how that history has shaped their lives. But countering Holocaust denial and distortion, and the trivialization of Nazi history, that's also an important part of our mission. So today, we’re stepping outside our usual format to explore how Holocaust history and Nazi imagery have entered popular culture. Daniel Rachel is the author of This Ain’t Rock ’n’ Roll: Pop Music, the Swastika and the Third Reich. And he asks a rather provocative question: How do we confront hatred in rock music? This is a different subject for us, but it is really very much part of the conversation we’re continuing here on TO BE CONTINUED.. And we return in October with a new episode featuring award-winning journalist and filmmaker Marisa Fox, a 2G descendant and the writer, producer, and editor of her new film, My Underground Mother. The Stones put it this way. "It's only rock and roll, but I like it." Oh, I really like it. You know that. If you've been reading my column for any length of time, you know that I am a serious rock and roll fan. Oh, it starts with the Beatles, it goes into the Stones, David Bowie, The Who, Dylan, obviously, always Dylan. You know, when I was a grown up, I learned how to interpret sacred texts, but when I was a teenager, the only sacred texts I was interpreting were Dylan lyrics. It's only rock and roll, but sometimes I don't like it. From the Religion News Service, this is Martini Judaism. For those who want to be shaken and stirred, and I'm Rabbi Jeffrey Salkin. And today we're doing something a little different. We're not going to be talking about Torah, or theology, or Israel, or even the crisis of American Jewish identity. Though I promise you that these topics will sort of show up in some form or another. They always do. Today we're talking about rock and roll. Specifically, we're talking about a remarkable, disturbing, and overdue book called "This Ain't Rock and Roll, Pop Music, the Swastika, and the Third Reich” by Daniel Rachel. The book documents something that's been hiding in plain sight for more than 60 years. Here's the quote: "For over 75 years, musicians have been drawn to the language and provocative imagery of Nazism, fascinated by its power, menace, and underlying sexuality. They have flirted with the theatrical spectacle of the Third Reich, displayed the swastika, flaunted memorabilia, wore Nazi uniforms, and marveled at the grandiose rallies of 1930s Germany." Let me put it to you this way. Decades ago, the American folk sing