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The Forest School Podcast: Daily Summaries Delivered
by Lewis Ames and Wem Southerden
Wem Southerden & Lewis Ames have run Forest School and training centre Children of the Forest since 2017. The Forest School Podcast was born when they wondered if their daily wafflechats and reflections about pedagogy, play and nature connection might be of interest to others. The podcast aims to inform and support educators, parents, outdoor and play practitioners and anyone interested in nature and the outdoors. Through book reviews – interviews with experts, practitioners and authors – sharing our experience as educators and business owners – deep dives on fascinating topics –
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- 1 weeks ago58 min
Episode 252: Inessential Weirdness
Wem and I get into a concept neither of us had a name for until this week: inessential weirdness. It comes from a video by organisational psychologist Pippi Kessler, and once you've got the term you start seeing it everywhere.We open with my Ofsted saga (someone reported me to Ofsted over a cropped screenshot of me singing with a puppet, long story, I passed with zero concerns), then get into the real conversation. Pippi's video looks at activist groups and asks what actually alienates working class people from community spaces. The answer isn't posh venues or fancy food, it's things like unsalted vegan potluck dishes and unexplained rituals that have nothing to do with why people showed up.We spend the rest of the episode pulling that idea apart and applying it to forest school and CPD spaces. Where's the line between weird that's essential to what we do and weird that's just unexamined habit? We talk about whimsical go-arounds, breathwork, sit spots, hierarchy, virtue signalling, agency, and why "can you explain why we're doing this" is the best test for whether something belongs. We also get into the class dimension of all this, how much time, money and prior exposure it takes to feel comfortable with certain kinds of "weird," and why that matters if you actually want your sessions to be open to people outside your existing community.Not an argument against weirdness. We love weird. It's an argument for knowing why you're doing it.Watch the video that started this conversation:Pippi Kessler, "Inessential Weirdness" — https://www.instagram.com/p/DbWVC6rPBaL/More on Pippi's work:https://www.pippikessler.org/
- 2 weeks ago50 min
Ep 251 - Preparing and Procrastinating
In this episode, Wem and I chatted about feedback from previous episodes, preparing for incoming winter seasons, and whether it's possible to 'procrastinate' at Forest School.www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast to support uswww.children-of-the-forest.com for CPD weekends and more!
- Aug 14, 202645 min
Ep 250 - Fires in a Heatwave?
This week Wem and I get into something that's been rumbling through forest school Facebook groups all summer: fires, heatwaves, drought, and where individual choice ends and collective responsibility begins.It started with a post about forest school leaders lighting fires during the current UK drought, and the pile of comments underneath it. Some people were arguing it's down to individual practitioners, their training and their risk benefit assessments. Others were pointing at local fire services actively fighting wildfires and asking whether "I've done my RBA" is really enough justification right now. We try to pull that apart properly rather than picking a side.Along the way we talk about the headline game, a tool I use for weighing up risky decisions, and how it applies just as well to cancelling a session as it does to lighting a fire. We get into whether forest school is a community or a collection of individuals doing their own thing, my ongoing argument against the mycelial network metaphor and my pitch for lichen instead, and where the line sits between influencing someone's practice and controlling it.We finish on training and accrediting bodies, what a climate-literate Forest School Leader Level 3 might actually need to cover, and how we might get better at critiquing each other's practice without it turning into a pile-on.Forest School Association, the UK's professional body for Forest School, which runs the Recognised Provider and Endorsed Trainer schemes we talk about: forestschoolassociation.orgThe Met Office Fire Severity Index, the tool fire services use to rate wildfire risk and which prompted our "what should Level 3 training actually cover" tangent: metoffice.gov.uk/services/government/environmental-hazard-resilience/fire-severity-indexThe Beaufort scale, referenced as the wind equivalent of the fire index conversationhttps://www.rmets.org/metmatters/beaufort-wind-scaleLinks and references mentioned
- Aug 14, 20261h 4m
Ep 249 - Clowning & Forest School w/ Ellie J A.K.A ClownDaddy
This week I'm joined by Ellie J, known online as Clown Daddy. I first came across her work online and knew straight away that forest school leaders and outdoor educators would get something out of hearing how she thinks about performance, status and play.Ellie trained as an actress at NYU before studying at the famous L'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq in Paris, sometimes called clown school even though it teaches far more than that. She now works as an actress, clown and puppeteer, blending all three into what she calls Clown Daddy, and her current show is a one woman version of Hamlet built entirely around the idea that the rest of the cast simply doesn't turn up.We talk about what happens when you take something as wordy and prescriptive as Shakespeare and hand it over to clowning instead. From there the conversation opens out into the stuff I really wanted to get into: status and hierarchy, the courage it takes to fail in front of a group, and why safety has to come before play, not the other way round. Ellie draws a brilliant distinction between offering someone a single kernel of popcorn and tipping the whole bucket over their head, and it maps almost exactly onto how I think about pushing kids gently rather than shocking them into growth.We also get into the darker side of performance training, the Philippe Gaulier school of "you are a piece of crap on my boot" teaching, and whether that culture still has a place anywhere. Ellie's answer is more generous than I expected. There's a good stretch on consent in performance, on reading a room without ever handing someone a form to fill in, and on why she doesn't record her workshops or shows. And we finish on nature, puppetry, and pine needle confetti, which I am now determined to actually make.Clown Daddy's website: clown-daddy.comClown Daddy Presents (shows, workshops and coaching): clowndaddypresents.comInstagram: @clowndaddypresentsL'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq, Paris (the "Lecoq school" Ellie trained at)Michael Chekhov, actor and teacher referenced for his work on embodiment and imaginationPhilippe Gaulier, the clowning teacher whose famously brutal teaching style we discussEllie J, also known as Clown Daddy, is an actress turned clown and puppeteer based in the Catskills. Trained at NYU Tisch and Lecoq in Paris, her work blends physical comedy, puppetry and vaudevillian slapstick with real emotional depth. Her current show, a solo take on Hamlet, has been touring venues in New York State.Links mentionedAbout Clown Daddy
- Jul 24, 202650 min
Ep 248 - Asserting Boundaries
This week, Wem and I chatted about Boundary setting and picked through Kami Orange's book of boundary scripts and frameworks!
- Jun 11, 202647 min
Ep 247 - Intra-Relational Behaviour Support
What if the secret to better behaviour support in forest school isn't focusing on the child at all?Lewis and Wem are back for a wide-ranging, woodland-based chat that opens with lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven before diving into some genuinely rich territory: what does it actually mean to take an intraaction-based approach to behaviour? How do you move away from old-school "fix the child" thinking without sliding into permissiveness? And what can a day of interpretive dance, collective poetry, and drama research in Bristol teach us about forest school pedagogy? Plus: squirrels, rabbits round the fire pit, the Southwest FSA Gathering, tenon cutters, and Wem's mysterious single-name workshop listing at the national conference.Chapter Titles and Timestamps:0:00 - Lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven2:00 - Wearing messy, child-made things as a badge of honour4:29 - Following up on Dr Wendy Russell: intraaction and behaviour support6:54 - Old-school behaviour management vs. shifting what you can actually control8:50 - The soup of a person: inner worlds, neuroplasticity, and fixed mindset language14:20 - Persistent offering and not closing doors too early17:53 - Is intraaction-based behaviour support just permissive?20:02 - The communal cooking example: setting people up to succeed22:27 - How loudly does John's sadness exist? On heterarchy and roles26:07 - The Tangled Roots of Creative Research and Social Justice, Bristol33:42 - The Conference of Trees and the value of cross-disciplinary spaces35:49 - Space-setting intentions vs. ground rules: lessons from a research day40:12 - The Southwest FSA Gathering at Hateford Woods41:10 - Tenon cutters, turmeric dyeing, and beatboxing44:29 - National conference plans, and Wem's workshop: Looking at Play Playfully46:45 - Beech overhang, approaching rain, and goodbyeSupportive Elements:Listen back to the episode with Dr Wendy Russell on play, posthumanism, and spatial justice for children, which this conversation directly follows on from. We also reference our previous episode on Nonviolent Communication. Find everything at www.children-of-the-forest.com. Support the show from around £2/month at www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast , and leave us a voice message via the SpeakPipe link on the website.
- May 22, 20261h 3m
Ep 246 - Relational Capability Approach w/ Dr Wendy Russell
This one is special. Wem and I got to sit down with Dr Wendy Russell, independent play researcher, senior research fellow at the University of Gloucestershire, and 50 years into a career that started on an adventure playground apprenticeship in the 1970s. I came away from this conversation needing to go for a long walk and think about everything.The first half covers Wendy's work on spatial justice for children, the politics of public space, and what it would actually mean to have a statutory play sufficiency duty in England. We talk about what play sufficiency means in practice, why Wales has led the way, and why politicians keep defaulting to playgrounds when the picture is so much bigger than that.The second half goes deeper, into the relational capability approach to playing and being well that Wendy has developed with Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil of Ludicology. Drawing on Henri Lefebvre's production of space, Karen Barad's concept of intra-action, and the relational turn across academic disciplines, Wendy patiently walked Wem and me through a genuinely paradigm-shifting way of thinking about children, play, agency and wellbeing.By the end, the playwork principles themselves come under scrutiny. The idea of play as "freely chosen and personally directed" gets unpicked in a way that I'm still sitting with.Strap in. Press rewind as many times as you need. See you on the other side.In this episodeHow Wendy moved from adventure playground apprentice to academic researcher across 50 years in play and playworkThe politics of space and what spatial justice for children actually meansWhy falling road casualty statistics for children hide a much more troubling storyPlay sufficiency as a principle, what it is, what Wales has done with it, and why England feels like it's at a genuine policy moment right nowThe tension between play's intrinsic value and what funders and politicians actually want to measureWhy post-occupancy evaluation of housing developments almost never happens, and what Diana Bournat's research tells us when it doesHow repositioning a ball games area changes the way girls move across an entire spaceThe relational capability approach to playing and being well, resources, opportunities, and the conditions that allow children to playThe relational turn across academic disciplines and what it means to move away from the individual, atomised childKaren Barad's concept of intra-action and why "interaction" doesn't quite capture itWhat all of this means for forest school practice, the wind, the branch, the ants, and usFollowing an object across a play session as a practitioner reflective tool (I am absolutely trying this)Why "freely chosen and personally directed" is a useful definition and also, it turns out, a deeply adult-centric oneLinks and resourcesWendy Russell's publications, University of Gloucestershire research repository (search "Wendy Russell Gloucestershire") or via her LinkedIn profile [add link]Playing and Being Well, the Play Wales commissioned research review: playwales.org.ukPlay Wales: playwales.org.ukPlay England: playengland.org.ukLudicology, Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil: ludicology.comUNCRC General Comment 17 on Article 31, children's right to playHenri Lefebvre, The Production of SpaceKaren Barad, concept of intra-actionTim Gill, children's independent mobility and road space design: timgill.netComing up at Children of the ForestPedagogy Immersion Weekend, 15 and 16 August 2026, Devon. If you're already qualified and you want to have the kind of conversation we've just had, this is the place. Tickets and nearby accommodation listings at children-of-the-forest.comLevel 3 Forest School Leader Training, Sunday cohort and intensive holiday block formats. Details and booking on the website.Send us a voice noteGot thoughts on this episode? There's a button on the website where you can record us a voice note directly from your phone. We genuinely love getting them.
- May 11, 20261h 1m
Ep 245 - Folklore and Neo-Enclosure w/ Nik Elvy
In this podcast, Nik Elvy, an artist, outdoor educator, and researcher, shares insights on neo-enclosure, folk traditions, and the impact of history on contemporary society. We explored themes of land access, cultural heritage, and social justice, offering a deep dive into how history and folklore shape our present and future.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes01:18 Nick Elvie's Background and Recent Work03:01 Understanding Neo-Enclosure: Definitions and Examples04:59 Green Spaces, Parking, and Neo-Enclosure06:48 Community Spaces and Exclusion09:01 Meeting with the Secretary of State on Poverty11:55 Poverty, Epigenetics, and Family History15:56 Historical Land Rights and Enclosure Movements20:02 Folklore, Folk Practices, and Cultural Heritage29:54 The Folk Renaissance and Cultural Appropriation39:57 Community Engagement and Folk Traditions50:05 Contemporary Challenges: Gentrification and Cultural Loss57:58 The Role of Outdoor Education and Land Access01:00:00 Closing Remarks and ResourcesFolklorican on Substack - https://folklorican.substack.com/Folkloric on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/folkloric
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About The Forest School Podcast
Wem Southerden & Lewis Ames have run Forest School and training centre Children of the Forest since 2017. The Forest School Podcast was born when they wondered if their daily wafflechats and reflections about pedagogy, play and nature connection might be of interest to others. The podcast aims to inform and support educators, parents, outdoor and play practitioners and anyone interested in nature and the outdoors. Through book reviews – interviews with experts, practitioners and authors – sharing our experience as educators and business owners – deep dives on fascinating topics –
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