Virtuous Violence and the Psychology of Nuclear Escalation

In this episode, we speak with Paul Slovic, Rose McDermott, and Cmdr. Daniel R. Post about their recent TNSR article "When Our Minds Go Nuclear," arguing that nuclear strategy too often assumes rational, stable decision-making despite decades of psychological research on bounded rationality and bias. Drawing on survey experiments based on the Sagan and Valentino Iran war scenario, they discuss how mechanisms like psychic numbing, affect, hot/cold empathy gaps, social contagion, and comparative framing can increase support for nuclear strikes, including through "virtuous violence" and the "better bomb" (lesser-evil) effect. They warn that modernization and expanded use concepts make non-use a "dangerous illusion," and recommend safeguards such as multi-person authorization, training, protocols, structured dissent, and deliberation—especially as AI increases information pressure. Guests: Paul Slovic | Professor of Psychology at the University of Oregon and Senior Scientist at the Oregon Research Institute   Rose McDermott | David and Marianna Fisher University Professor of International Relations at Brown University   Commander Daniel R. Post | Permanent Military Professor in the Strategy and Policy Department at the U.S. Naval War College Hosts: Sheena Chestnut Greitens Ryan Vest Producer: Jordan Morning