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- 1 weeks ago1h 30m
No Bad Parts? Dick Schwartz and John Vervaeke on IFS, the Self, and Spiritual Guides (hosted by Seth Allison)
What happens when the founder of Internal Family Systems and a cognitive scientist of meaning sit down to compare notes on parts, Self, and the guides that show up when the inner world quiets? In this Lectern dialogue, psychotherapist Seth Allison takes the host chair so John Vervaeke can talk peer to peer with Dick Schwartz, the creator of Internal Family Systems (IFS). Dick tells the origin story: a 1980s outcome study with bulimic clients who kept talking in the language of parts, a cutting part that changed everything when he stopped trying to beat it, and the discovery of a Self with calm, confidence and compassion beneath the parts. John traces his own path from a punitive fundamentalist upbringing through Socrates, Pierre Hadot and 4E cognitive science to IFS, and describes the day a presence announcing itself as Hermes interrupted his practice. From there, Seth proposes that every part is doing its own relevance realization, and the three explore salience landscapes, parasitic processing, reciprocal narrowing and reciprocal opening, and what happens when the Self brings Socratic dialogue to the inner system. Dick speaks publicly about the guides he has kept quiet about for 30 years and the new book he is writing on the spirituality of IFS. John asks whether parts need education as well as healing, argues that some cognitive distortion is built into being a finite mind, proposes an experiment to test it, and makes the case that IFS is a sophisticated form of ritual. They close on psychedelics, integration, and IFS as one way back to the spiritual wisdom modernity cut us off from. Seth Allison is a psychotherapist, coach and teacher whose work is about creating containers where transformation and growth can happen. Dick Schwartz is the developer of Internal Family Systems. John Vervaeke is a cognitive scientist and philosopher whose work explores cognition, meaning, wisdom, and the meaning crisis. Seth Allison - LinkedIn Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - John Vervaeke Daemons Are Forever 00:00 Cold open: guides and Hermes-like experiences 01:10 Welcome: Seth Allison takes the host chair 02:50 Check-ins 03:50 The origin of IFS: a bulimia study and the language of parts 07:40 The cutting part and "I give up" 10:10 "We can safely say that there are no bad parts." (Dick Schwartz) 11:05 Discovering the Self and its C-word qualities 14:40 John's two streams: science and spirit 17:50 Hadot, spiritual exercises and 4E cognitive science 20:50 COVID, attachment theory and finding IFS 22:15 Hermes shows up during IFS practice 24:00 Predictive processing and the three meta problems 29:40 Precision weighting and relevance realization 32:10 Agency, autopoiesis and transjective meaning 34:45 Seth's proposal: every part does relevance realization 38:00 Salience landscapes and reciprocal opening 42:05 Parasitic processing and reciprocal narrowing 44:45 Socratic dialogue with parts 47:10 Why Hermes showed up: John's hypothesis 49:00 The Self as a Socratic third party 50:15 The spirituality of IFS and guides 52:30 Making change last: protectors and unburdening 53:40 Beyond therapy: the existential project and the divine double 56:50 IFS as attachment theory taken inside 58:25 Spiritual bypassing and the "pesky ego" 01:01:20 Do parts need education, not just healing? 01:05:55 Education vs. unburdening 01:09:40 Cognitive distortion beyond trauma 01:13:45 An experiment John proposes 01:15:45 Legacy burdens 01:16:35 Is Self optimal relevance realization? 01:19:40 Dick's new book and lost spiritual wisdom 01:21:50 IFS as ritual 01:25:35 Psychedelics, integration and IFS 01:28:05 Last words The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!
- 3 weeks ago1h 16m
Philosophy and the Daimonic: A Dialogue with Charles Stang (Charles Stang Dialogue 3)
What if becoming wiser requires a relationship with a "divine double" within you? In episode three of the series, John and Harvard's Charles Stang move on from Plato, Xenophon, and Aristophanes to Apuleius' 2nd-century text On the God of Socrates, which imagines philosophy as a kind of daimonology that begins and ends with two daimons: the daimon that is your soul and the daimon that is your double. Apuleius presents daimons as intermediaries between dispassionate gods and passionate humans, translating the gods' care into the language of emotion, and then complicates his own taxonomy: human souls are themselves daimons, the air is populated by the formerly embodied dead, and some daimons were never embodied at all and attach themselves to our souls as guides. Along the way, John and Charles compare daimons with biblical angels and connect the daimonic to internal family systems, grief-time encounters with the dead, dialogical rationality, the future self, and intuition as non-conscious pattern detection that needs dialectic as a check. John speaks openly about a waking vision and a dream of Hermes, before Charles previews Porphyry's story of an Egyptian priest summoning Plotinus' daimon at the temple of Isis in Rome. Charles Stang is Professor of Early Christian Thought at Harvard Divinity School, Director of the Center for the Study of World Religions at Harvard, and the author of Our Divine Double. In this episode, he guides John through Apuleius' On the God of Socrates and its vision of philosophy as knowing your own daimonic soul and cultivating a relationship with its divine double. John Vervaeke is a cognitive scientist and philosopher whose work explores cognition, meaning, wisdom, and the meaning crisis. In this conversation, he brings 4E cognitive science, the dialogical self, and research on intuition to bear on Apuleius' account, and shares his own encounters with Hermes. Study the daimon with Charles: Daemons in Divinity on The Lectern Charles Stang's Web On the God of Socrates - Apuleius Our Divine Double - Charles M. Stang Symposium - Plato Divination and Human Nature - Peter T. Struck Divination and Theurgy in Neoplatonism - Crystal Addey On the Life of Plotinus - Porphyry The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!
- 4 weeks ago1h 9m
Socrates, Daimons, and the Space In-Between (Charles Stang Dialogue 2)
What was Socrates actually hearing when his daimon spoke, and why might the space in-between, neither purely inside us nor fully outside us, be the key to discerning spirits today? In part two of the Lectern series on the daimon, Charles Stang and John Vervaeke move from Plato to Socrates' other witnesses, Xenophon and Aristophanes. Charles shows that the indictment against Socrates charged him with not worshipping the gods of the state (theoi) and with bringing in novel divinities (daimonia), and that Xenophon defends him by presenting his daimonion as ordinary divination. John responds from cognitive science, describing a continuum of felt presence experiences, and warns against two opposite biases: treating every such entity as demonic, or trusting every one as a benevolent guide. Drawing on his own ongoing dialogues with Hermes, he argues that discernment of spirits is a learnable skill, more like a martial art than a set of propositions. The discussion then turns to Aristophanes' The Clouds, where Socrates is satirised hanging in a basket among divinities of the air, and on to breath, Tai Chi, and enacted metaphor. From suspension they arrive at betweenness: Diotima's description of Eros as a daimon, the philosopher as metaxu, and finite transcendence, before closing on how the meaning crisis has left us without ways to discern spirits, setting up the next conversation on Apuleius. Charles Stang is Professor of Early Christian Thought at Harvard Divinity School and Director of the Center for the Study of World Religions at Harvard. In this episode, he examines Socrates' daimon through the witness of Xenophon and Aristophanes, and the ancient association of daimons with air and with the space between humans and gods. John Vervaeke is a cognitive scientist and philosopher whose work explores cognition, meaning, wisdom, and the meaning crisis. In this conversation, he brings cognitive science, embodied practice, and his ongoing dialogues with Hermes to bear on the daimon, felt presence, and the discernment of spirits. Study the daimon with Charles: Daemons in Divinity on The Lectern Charles Stang's Web Memorabilia - Xenophon The Clouds - Aristophanes Symposium - Plato Apology - Plato Presence - Ben Alderson-Day Being and the Between - William Desmond 00:00 Cold open: entity encounters 01:50 Welcome back, Charles Stang 03:00 Recap: Plato's Socrates daimon 04:30 Xenophon's Memorabilia 05:20 The indictment: theoi vs. daimonia 08:10 Divination and divine signs 09:40 Xenophon's two novelties 11:20 Psychology of felt presence 16:40 Beyond binary ontology 19:50 Impiety and corrupting youth 21:20 Hermes and bipolar bias 28:50 Psychedelic entity encounters 31:00 Discernment as martial art 35:00 Pivot to The Clouds 38:50 Socrates in a basket 42:00 Spiritual alchemy and elements 44:00 Cerebellum and enacted metaphor 48:00 Why air? Breath as bridge 53:20 Suspending judgment and Tai Chi 55:40 Betweenness and Diotima's Eros 57:30 Metaxu and finite transcendence 59:02 "We are not transcendent purely. That is to be a god. We are not merely finite. That is to be an animal." 01:00:50 Meaning crisis, lost discernment 01:03:50 William Desmond and the metaxu 01:06:50 Closing thanks The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon <p dir=
- Oct 1, 20261h 3m
Why Is Wisdom So Hard to Access?
How do you make deep philosophical and transformative work accessible to more people without sacrificing the precision, rigor, and depth that make it meaningful in the first place? John Vervaeke, with Ethan Hsieh and Taylor Barratt, discusses recurring feedback that his work is meaningful but hard to share, and the ethical tension between precision and epistemic responsibility on one side and making ideas broadly shareable on the other. They describe practical steps already taken or planned: clearer scaffolding in Lectern courses, additional instructors, a teaching-assistance program, adapting content into books, new pathways through the large YouTube catalog, and shorter thematic overview videos. They also introduce a 12-module Studio app built around a 5–15 minute daily practice habit, with an AI "coach" designed with ethical constraints, to translate key ideas (the four Ps, relevance realization, DIME) into accessible practice. Finally, they outline a tiered practice ecosystem of intensives, retreats, and the Reframe Festival (June 3–6, 2027, Colorado), plus a six-week Awaken to Meaning practice course, and invite good-faith audience feedback. Together, they explore: the challenge of making John Vervaeke's philosophical and scientific work more accessible without sacrificing rigor why accessibility involves more than simply making information easier to understand the tension between precision, epistemic responsibility, and reaching a broader audience why accessibility also includes financial, educational, relational, and structural dimensions how The Lectern can create different entry points for people with different levels of experience the role of the Studio app in helping people build a habit of practice how group practice, watch parties, and supportive relationships make philosophical practice more sustainable how the Four Ps of Knowing, relevance realization, and the DIME framework are introduced through a more accessible structure why a structured approach can help people who struggle with executive functioning the different levels of engagement offered through courses, practice groups, retreats, intensives, and festivals how practice communities can function like a dojo for developing skills 00:00 Why Accessibility Matters 00:30 Welcome and Video Purpose 02:00 Accuracy vs Accessibility Tension 07:00 Taylor on Vulnerability and Reach 10:00 Practice and Relationship Impacts 13:26 "How do we make it accessible such that people who don't have to work an extra job just to be able to pay for a course?" 14:30 Progressive Teaching and Prereqs 20:00 Multiple Mediums and Channel Overload 24:00 New Access Pathways and Shorter Videos 26:00 Introducing the Practice App 28:30 App Modules and Daily Habit Design 32:00 AI Coach Feature and Ethics 34:30 Ethan on Pedagogy and Core Ideas 36:30 Habit Gap After Insight 38:00 App as Training Wheels 39:30 ADHD Friendly Structure 42:00 Tiered Practice Pathways 44:30 Reframe Festival Details 47:00 Retreats Between Intensives 49:30 Hardcore Training Track 54:00 Ecosystem Not Closed 56:30 Feedback and Next Steps 58:00 Six Week Practice Gateway 01:01:30 Final Encouragement and Thanks Resources Find Clarity and Connection in a Noisy World App Teaching Assistance Program (TAP) Reframe Festival from Awaken to Meaning Relational Ecology Program (REP) on Awaken to Meaning Explore courses and teachings from The Lectern Support the Lectern and join a growing community of wisdom seekers on Patreon Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!
- Sep 26, 20261h 49m
John Thatamanil on Circling the Elephant: Religion, Porosity, and the Promise of Pluralism | Silk Road Seminar
What if the problem isn't that religions disagree, but that we invented the idea that you can only belong to one? In this Silk Road Seminar, John Vervaeke sits down with theologian John J. Thatamanil, author of Circling the Elephant: A Comparative Theology of Religious Diversity. Thatamanil traces his path from the ancient Mar Thoma Christian tradition of South India to comparative theology, and makes the case that our modern idea of "religion" is a recent invention, born alongside the secular, entangled with colonialism and racialization, and built to sort people into single, sealed boxes. Together, they explore: Why religion is not a natural kind, and why the village atheist and the fundamentalist mirror each other Tillich, participation, and God as the ground of being rather than a being Religion as comprehensive qualitative orientation: interpretive schemes and therapeutic regimes that "true" our desires Semiotic symbiosis, process perennialism, and horizontal vs. vertical non-dualism Pilgrims, not tourists: how deep practice across traditions renews faith Why capitalism functions as a religion, and where hope lives now John J. Thatamanil is Professor of Theology and World Religions at Union Theological Seminary in New York. His work in comparative theology focuses on Hindu and Buddhist non-dualism and the possibility of a Christian non-dualism. He is the author of Circling the Elephant and The Immanent Divine. Books mentioned: Circling the Elephant (John J. Thatamanil), In Praise of Mixed Religion (Victoria S. Harrison), Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian (Paul Knitter), The Invention of Religion in Japan (Jason Ānanda Josephson). 00:00 Welcome to the Silk Road Seminar 01:41 From Mar Thoma Christianity to comparative theology 07:37 Religion and its "Siamese twin," the secular 12:36 Why religion isn't a natural kind 22:24 The village atheist and facile theism 29:07 Tillich, participation, and the ground of being 36:11 Religion as comprehensive qualitative orientation 43:08 Interpretive schemes and therapeutic regimes 47:09 Jesus, the Buddha, and truth as a person 48:37 Dialogos and semiotic symbiosis 56:55 "Multiplicity is life, and singularity is almost always death." 01:00:51 Perennialism vs. process perennialism 01:08:32 Love, knowledge, and the post-truth condition 01:12:40 Q&A: Traditionalism, perennialism, and Eliade 01:19:27 Horizontal and vertical non-dualism 01:25:13 Narrative archetypes and "Protestant Buddhism" 01:32:19 Is capitalism a religion? 01:38:01 What gives you hope? The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!
- Sep 21, 20261h 20m
Awakening to the Divine Double: An Introduction to Daimons in Greek Tradition
Could the "divine double" be a hidden guide within us, and what happens when we begin to recognize it? Harvard Divinity School professor Charles Stang, author of Our Divine Double, joins Ethan to introduce his Lectern course Daemons in Divinity and the ancient Greek idea of the daimon. Stang traces Socrates' daimonion, the guiding sign that shaped his life, through Plato and later thinkers who saw daimons as intermediaries or as a person's highest faculty, which makes us "gods in waiting." He contrasts loose "higher self" talk with disciplined discernment, and shares uncanny reading experiences as encounters with a divine double. Enroll in Daemons in Divinity: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/daemons-in-divinity Together, they explore: the daimon and Socrates' inner sign the divine double as counterpart, alter ego or twin discernment and the risk of self-deception daimons as bodies of air partnership, not possession the modern loss of the daimonic reading as a transformative encounter across time from "Flatland" to a vertical, multidimensional reality Timestamps 00:00 Reading as Transformation 01:30 Welcome and Guest Intro 04:00 Socrates and the Daimonion 06:00 Divine Double Framework 09:00 Course Purpose and Modern Relevance 11:00 Roleplay Skeptic Questions 17:00 Discernment and Self Deception 27:30 Extraordinary Encounters Explained 31:00 What Is a Daimon 35:00 Ambiguity and Axis Shift 37:30 Wisdom Beyond Outcomes 39:00 Socrates and the Inner Sign 42:00 Daimons as Bodies of Air 43:00 Seeing Air Through Apuleius 45:30 Theater as Spirit Vessel 50:00 Partnership Not Possession 52:00 Modern Loss of the Daimonic 56:00 Higher Self vs Deep Practice 59:00 Vertical Self and Jung 01:03:00 Puppy Crisis and Jesus 01:06:30 Uncanny Reading and Flatland to Spaceland 01:10:30 Daimon and God 01:13:00 Course Takeaways and Farewell Explore courses from The Lectern: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/ Support the Lectern on Patreon: patreon.com/johnvervaeke Follow John Vervaeke: Website | X | YouTube Thank you for listening!
- Sep 11, 202653 min
Cognition, Religion, and the Trust Apocalypse Are More Connected Than You Think
What if religion was never really about belief, but about how we make meaning? Trust in institutions like religion, law, science, and journalism is collapsing, yet some of the most demanding traditions, like Eastern Orthodoxy and the traditional Latin Mass, are growing as people seek ritual, discipline, and transformation. In this talk, John Vervaeke argues it is increasingly difficult to study human cognition without studying religion, pointing to the co-emergence of religion and human cognition, the importance of imaginal cognition, altered states and mystical experience, and non-propositional knowing in 4E cognitive science. He critiques first-generation cognitive science of religion for treating religions as irrational, belief-based "failed science" and for ignoring religious studies. Drawing on ethnography and genealogy, he argues that religions are porous, syncretistic ecologies of practice, that the "religion" construct is historically contingent, and that a process theory should ask how people become religious, including through credibility-enhancing displays. In this talk, John explores: why religion continues to matter in a modern world that often considers itself increasingly secular how cognitive science has shaped, and sometimes limited, our understanding of religion the rise of the "imaginal" and its role in human cognition and religious experience why religion cannot be reduced to belief or explained simply as a cognitive byproduct how science and religion became divided through modern dichotomies why cognitive science needs to engage with insights from religious studies how religions are porous, interconnected, and shaped through historical exchange how Equus illustrates the relationship between sacred meaning and human experience why religion is better understood as an ecology of practices rather than a system of beliefs how credibility-enhancing displays (CREDs) shape participation in traditions how institutional trust, religious revival, and the contemporary "trust apocalypse" are connected how fluency and participation can open pathways toward mystical experience 00:00 Welcome To The Lectern 01:00 Religious Revival Paradox 02:00 Why Cognition Needs Religion 03:30 The Rise Of The Imaginal 06:00 Spiritual Not Religious 07:15 Early CogSci Religion Assumptions 09:45 Adaptation Vs Byproduct Debate 11:30 NOMA And Modern Dichotomies 15:00 Postmodern Critique Of Binaries 18:30 Why Consult Religious Studies 20:15 Religions Are Porous Not Pure 21:45 The Origin Of God Genealogy 27:00 Equus And Sacred Meaning 28:45 Equus In The Dark 30:30 Syncretism And Capitalism 31:30 Religion As Practice Ecology 32:45 CRED And Becoming Rational 35:45 Meaning Sacred And Apprenticeship 37:30 Process Theory Of Religion 41:00 Genealogy And Imperial Construct 44:00 Q&A Rejecting The Sacred 46:30 Institutions Trust And Revival 50:00 Beauty Fluency Mysticism — Explore courses and teachings from The Lectern https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/ Support the Lectern and join a growing community of wisdom seekers https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon — Thank you for listening! What if religion was never really about belief, but about how we make meaning? Trust in institutions like religion, law, science, and journalism is collapsing, yet some of the most demanding traditions, like Eastern Orthodoxy and the traditional Latin Mass, are growing as people seek ritual, discipline, and transformation. In this talk, John Vervaeke argues it is increasingly difficult to study human cognition without studying religion, pointing to the co-emergence of religion and human cognition, the importance of imaginal cognition, altered states and mystical experience, and non-propositional knowing in 4E cognitive science. He critiques first-generation cognitive science of religion for treating religions as irrational, belief-based "failed science" and for ignoring religious studies. Drawing on ethnography and genealogy, he argues that religions are porous, syncretistic ecologies of practice, that the "religion" construct is historically contingent, and that a process theory should ask how people become religious,
- Aug 28, 20261h 32m
Communal Living as Spiritual Practice: Friendship, Formation, and Renewing the Senses
Can we find freedom in a world of endless choice—or is deeper liberation found in the people we refuse to leave? In the first of a three-part Lectern Dialogues series, John Vervaeke is joined by Elizabeth Oldfield and her husband, Christopher Oldfield, for a conversation on intentional communal living as a spiritual practice within a Christian orientation. Elizabeth and Christopher share life with their children and three other adults in a small London home shaped by a shared rule of life: collective prayer, hospitality, study, play, administration, and the daily work of formation. They distinguish committed community from casual cohabitation, exploring how proximity, conflict, repair, and shared rhythms can cultivate deeper friendship and fellowship. The conversation connects intentional community with John's work on the philosophical Silk Road, renewing the senses, dialogical selfhood, attachment, participation, and the critique of modern individualism. It also takes seriously the risks of self-deception and toxic religion, asking what discernment and faithful communal maturation require. Guests Christopher Oldfield is a philosopher affiliated with the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion in Cambridge. His work explores wisdom, metaphysics, personhood, participation, and the sacred. Elizabeth Oldfield writes and speaks on spirituality, community, and relational life, examining how shared practices can restore connection with one another and with God. Resources Christopher Oldfield: https://www.chrisoldfieldphilosophy.com/ Elizabeth Oldfield on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-oldfield-5a5b6216/ Plato, The Seventh Letter: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/seventh_letter.html A Hidden Life: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5827916/ The Thin Red Line: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120863/ Explore courses and teachings from The Lectern: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/ Support The Lectern on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke Follow John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ X: https://twitter.com/vervaeke_jo
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