The Race Is On To Control AI | Episode 274: Afonso Salema & Sam Winter-Levy

More than 80% of the world’s advanced AI compute is concentrated in the US and China. For Europe and other middle powers, the question may no longer be how to win the AI race, but how to avoid becoming dangerously dependent on those that do.This week on Cleaning Up, James Cameron, Chair of Cleaning Up’s Editorial Council, takes over as guest host. He speaks with Sam Winter-Levy, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Afonso Salema, CEO of Exus Digital and founder of TerraByte Data Centers, about how compute is becoming a strategic resource.They explore how access to power and the grid is shaping where billions of dollars of AI infrastructure gets built, and how data centres could become a source of geopolitical leverage. They also discuss the security and public backlash facing this critical infrastructure, and whether AI’s enormous appetite for electricity could ultimately accelerate the clean energy transition.Topics covered in this episode:Compute as a strategic resourceThe US-China race for AIWhy Europe is falling behindAI’s rapidly growing electricity demandWhere the world builds data centresProtecting data centres from attackWeaponising chips and AI accessThe political backlash against data centresCan AI accelerate clean energy?Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Afonso Salema’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/afonso-salema-336320/Sam Winter-Levy’s bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/people/sam-winter-levyJames Cameron’s bio: https://www.james-cameron.co.uk/bioCleaning Up 235. Inside Start Campus, Europe’s largest data centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7GKiW5E4kJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPPjAbSxl5cSubscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/The Stanford 2026 AI index: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-reportEdelman Trust in AI poll: https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer/report-tech-sectorAcronyms:AWS: Amazon Web ServicesNIMBY: "Not In My Back Yard"Chapters:00:00 Introduction02:02 AI, security, geopolitics05:01 Compute as power11:34 The global AI race14:07 Building data centres18:02 Defending critical infrastructure23:53 Who pays for security?29:24 Designing for resilience32:48 Weaponising AI access40:02 Data centre backlash49:56 The balance of power54:09 Can Europe catch up?59:43 AI and clean energy01:04:01 Outro