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Clause 8: Daily Summaries Delivered
by Eli Mazour
Clause 8 is the long-form IP podcast hosted by Eli Mazour, featuring conversations with the people and forces shaping the patent system. Its audience includes sophisticated in-house counsel, judges, IP policymakers, senior USPTO officials, patent dealmakers, and leading practitioners. The show is designed to help listeners stay ahead of the curve by understanding not just the latest patent developments, but the personalities, incentives, and institutions behind them. Clause 8 features conversations that provide strategic insight into patent law, policy, innovation, licensing, and other issues affecting the IP community. Past guests have included major American innovators, federal judges, USPTO Directors, senior IP staff on Capitol Hill, in-house leaders, patent dealmakers — and Carole Baskin’s attorney from Tiger King. Law360 featured Clause 8 first in its 2026 list of “5 Podcasts to Keep IP Attys Entertained and Informed,” describing its guests as “a bit of a who’s who of IP law.” Clause 8 has also been covered or cited by Bloomberg, Courthouse News Service, Above the Law, IAM, Original Jurisdiction, and other publications.
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- 1 weeks ago1h 8m
“Nobody Won Until I Won”: Perry Saidman, the Godfather of Design Law
Perry Saidman passed away on October 15, 2026, less than a month after we recorded this conversation.Perry built the market for design patents. His win in Avia v. LA Gear, a sneaker knockoff case, helped prove design patents could be enforced. He co-founded and led the firm that became Sterne Kessler, then left in 1990 to start Saidman DesignLaw Group, the first firm in the country dedicated to design patents.In this episode:- How a sneaker knockoff, and his best deposition, put design patents on the map- Founding what became Sterne Kessler, and why he walked away- How Apple v. Samsung did more for design patents than 22 years of his marketing- Claiming the "DNA" of a product, and the appendix "trick of the trade"- Why the wrong design patents end up litigated- Range of Motion and the Egyptian Goddess sentence he called "a gift to infringers"- "Specialize, specialize, specialize," and leaving the top of the mountainClause 8 is sponsored by:Junior AI (http://docs.junior.law/) - Your legal team's documents, drafted in your team's style.IP Copilot (https://ipcopilot.ai/) - Discover, manage, and protect your IP.Chapters00:00:00 The Avia shoe case and how he got into design patents 00:04:12 Creating the market for design patents 00:07:24 Founding the firm that became Sterne Kessler, and why he left 00:22:00 Apple v. Samsung and where companies should start 00:29:41 Design patent strategy: functionality, solid lines, the appendix and GUIs 00:41:43 LKQ, examination and common mistakes 00:50:01 Egyptian Goddess and Range of Motion 00:55:22 Replacement parts, advice for lawyers and finding a niche 01:04:05 Leaving the top of the mountain This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- 3 weeks ago1h 41m
Coke Morgan Stewart Tells Her Story
When Coke Morgan Stewart became acting director of the USPTO, much of the patent world knew relatively little about her. Yet she quickly became the focus of considerable praise and criticism for the agency’s decisions, often without much understanding of her background or how those decisions actually came about. In this episode of Clause 8, Stewart, now President and CEO of the Council for Innovation Promotion (C4IP), sits down with Eli Mazour to finally tell her own story, from the career path that took her from English literature and a near detour into architecture school to the acting director’s chair, and to explain the how and why behind decisions she made along the way.Clause 8 is presented by:Junior AI - Your legal team’s documents, drafted in your team’s style.IP Copilot - Discover, manage, and protect your IP.Stewart’s father was federal Judge Henry Coke Morgan Jr., who presided over one of the largest patent judgments in history, $2.75 billion in Centripetal v. Cisco. The Federal Circuit later vacated the judgment because his wife owned less than $5,000 in the defendant’s stock. Stewart recalls her initial reaction as “incredible frustration with my mother,” who, despite being in her 80s, was still actively trading stocks. She also offers her perspective on the court’s decision, whether vacating the judgment was the appropriate remedy, and what the case illustrates about the unpredictability of patent litigation.Stewart had spent a decade as a career lawyer in USPTO’s Solicitor Office, then served as a deputy attorney general in Virginia, her first political appointment. But she had no obvious path to leading the USPTO. At the 2024 Republican convention in Milwaukee, former USPTO Director Andrei Iancu told her that pursuing the director role was “like a campaign”: you have to put your name out there. Her reaction was that “this is never going to happen.” She describes having no idea how to surface her name, working her contacts just to get an interview, and treating that interview as the win. What followed was a nearly hour-long conversation with Howard Lutnick, a separate round with presidential personnel, and a video call, while she was on a cruise ship, in which Lutnick told her he wanted her to be deputy director so that she could start running the office on day one of the administration. A week later, she was in New York for transition planning, buying a few days of winter clothes at Nordstrom on the way to the hotel and eventually flying back to Washington with Lutnick on his plane.Stewart arrived at the USPTO with a legal pad full of policy ideas, but her first months were dominated by the backlog and workforce challenges: a hiring freeze that meant rescinding outstanding offers, daily directives from OPM, DOGE-era demands and the “fork in the road” resignation offer, which more than 300 examiners took. She pushes back on the perception that PTAB judges were laid off, emphasizing that not a single judge was involuntarily separated. She also credits Lutnick with winning an exception to the hiring freeze that authorized the USPTO to hire 1,200 patent and trademark examiners. And she describes how the return-to-office push played out, from talk of tables in hallways at the Department of Commerce to protecting telework arrangements for a geographically dispersed workforce.On policy, she walks through the logic behind taking the discretionary part of IPR institution decisions back to the front office, including her argument that the burden should not fall entirely on the patent owner and that “settled expectations” and repeat challenges belong in the analysis. Asked to handicap the USPTO’s proposed PTAB rules, she says it is “60, 40” that they happen, explaining why the rulemaking process has moved largely beyond the Patent Office’s control. On Director John Squires returning merits-based institution decisions to PTAB panels, she lays out the pros and cons. She suggests a middle ground is possible but also points to a cautionary history: when the front office previously screened for discretion and left the merits to the panels, the institution rate for petitions reaching the merits stage rose to 95%.Stewart also reflects on what she would do differently. She says she wishes she had spent more time communicating with the workforce and had created a workforce council to give employees some representation and a better feedback loop. She also describes how valuable her regular meetings with an examiners’ union representative were, despite her generally conservative perspective on government unions. The conversation also covers AI and copyright, the p
- Sep 29, 202645 min
How Patent Litigation Really Moves: IAM, IP Fray, and MLex Reporters on the Year in IP
To open the season, host Eli Mazour brings together three journalists who cover intellectual property for a living: Olivia Rafferty of IP Fray, Nisha Shetty of IAM, and Inbar Preiss of MLex.They discuss what happens when patent litigation concentrates in a few courts, from Germany's dominance at the Unified Patent Court to the rise and fall of Judge Alan Albright in Texas. They also cover consolidation in the video codec patent pool market, Europe's fight over AI and copyright (including cases involving OpenAI, Suno, and Google's Gemini), why mainstream media struggles to cover IP, and what each journalist is watching next.Clause 8 is presented by:Junior AI - Your legal team's documents, drafted in your team's style. https://junior.lawP Copilot - Discover, manage, and protect your IP. https://ipcopilot.aiChapters:00:00 Introduction & meet the panel00:56 How each journalist got into covering IP07:42 The SEP regulation's rise, withdrawal, and EU court challenge11:53 US patent policy shifting with each administration13:40 Why most UPC cases are filed in Germany17:08 The Judge Albright controversy20:03 The EU's standardization regulation review23:50 Patent pools consolidate: the Via and Access Advance merger26:58 AI collides with copyright law30:26 Why mainstream media struggles to cover IP37:40 What's on the radar for next yearSubscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- Jun 2, 202650 min
Via Eyes "De Facto" Standards for Future Pools
Kevin Mack, the new president of Via Licensing Alliance, joins Eli for the Clause 8 season finale.Kevin talks about Via's plans to build its next patent pools around "de facto" standards — technology the market adopted on its own, with no standards body behind it — which would push collaborative licensing into territory it has never touched. Mack also takes a hard look at the royalty-free models spreading through tech and AI, from AV1 to the new Shared AI License Foundation (SAIL), argues that "free" rarely stays free, and explains why he's optimistic about where the patent system is heading.Kevin and Eli also discuss:*Via's model and the "tipping point" that turns a pool from a few licensors into thousands of licensees*"De facto" standards: pooling patents for technology no standards body ever blessed*Leadership turnover at Via, the HEVC pool's move to Access Advance, and a new strategy-and-growth group*The push into semiconductors, including a new DRAM memory program*AV1, SAIL, and why Mack thinks royalty-free rarely stays free*Whether AI patents are as "foundational" as advertised — and why "AI is not new"*Efficient infringement, patents as property rights, and why companies ultimately take a license*The mood out of Via's Rome summit and a US patent system tilting back toward ownersNotable names, companies & standardsPeople: Kevin Mack (president, Via Licensing Alliance); Heath Hoglund (former Via president); John Amster (Jamster Capital; RPX co-founder)Organizations: Via Licensing Alliance (Via LA), MPEG LA, Dolby, Access Advance, Alliance for Open Media, Shared AI License Foundation (SAIL), WIPO (PatentScope), DOJ, USPTOSAIL founders / board (public): Anthropic, Genentech, IBM, Meta, Microsoft; board observers eBay and TD Bank Group; members include Block and FigmaStandards & technologies: AAC, AVC (H.264), HEVC (H.265), AV1, MPEG-2, Qi wireless charging, DRAM memory, SEP / FRANDDisclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- May 19, 20261h 15m
AI Boom Calls for New Copyright Law, Says USPTO Chief Behind the DMCA
Bruce Lehman, head of USPTO from 1993 to 1998, joins Clause 8 for a wide-ranging conversation about the modern IP system, the internet boom, and why the AI era may require a new copyright response from Congress.Lehman helped shape internet-era copyright policy from the USPTO, including the work that led to the WIPO Copyright Treaties and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). He also played a major role in the broader 1990s pro-IP moment, when the United States was strengthening IP rights globally through TRIPS, WIPO, and trade policy.Now, Lehman argues that courts have spent the last two decades weakening copyright through an expansive view of fair use — creating a system where AI companies can train on massive amounts of human-created content without giving creators a meaningful stake. Asked whether new legislation is needed to protect creators in the AI age, Lehman does not hesitate: “The short answer is yes.”The episode also covers:*Lehman’s “patent pendulum” theory and why he believes the US is now in a low-protection IP era*How the DMCA emerged from the Clinton administration’s internet copyright work*TRIPS, WIPO, and the globalization of IP rights in the 1990s*Bayh-Dole and the rise of the university-to-startup pipeline*Lehman’s historic confirmation as the first openly gay man confirmed by the Senate*His role in turning the USPTO into a “prominent perch” for national IP policy*Gilbert Hyatt, submarine patents, and SAWS*USPTO telework, examiner retention, and modernization*His message that current leadership should “stop tormenting the Patent Corps”*The limits of AI — and why Lehman thinks it lacks the "metaphysical" spark behind true invention*Judge Pauline Newman and her pro-patent legacyWatch the full episode and read the companion post on Voice of IP: https://voiceofip.com/Subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- May 5, 202646 min
The AI Patent Team Alice Built Shares Its Prosecution Secrets
When Alice came down in 2014, much of the patent prosecution bar reacted with denial. Most practitioners hoped the USPTO, the Federal Circuit, or Congress would clean things up — and that adding some magic language to claims and specifications would eventually be enough.Eli Mazour and Ngai Zhang, separately, came to a different conclusion: there had to be a new, better way to obtain strong patents in the post-Alice world. They started comparing notes more than a decade ago, eventually converged on a shared approach, and now implement these strategies together at Foley & Lardner.On this episode of Clause 8, Eli and Ngai walk through what they actually do — their unique strategies for avoiding and overcoming Section 101 issues, why it's difficult for other attorneys to implement these strategies, and how they think their practice will be impacted in the age of AI.In this episode:* Why relying only on art unit prediction tools & wordsmithing is a losing strategy for § 101* Why claim 1 shouldn’t be your broadest claim* How taking features out of independent claims helps advance prosecution - and how the strategy also leaves clients routinely surprised by how broad their issued claims end up* Examiner interviews as hostage negotiations: Ngai’s framework based on Chris Voss’s Never Split the Difference* Differing approaches that Ngai and Eli have on whether to push for an explicit on-the-record agreement before ending an interview* AI as a collaborator for patent drafting and prosecution* The importance of human interactions and communication for patent prosecution even in the age of AIWatch the full episode and read the companion post on Voice of IP: https://voiceofip.com/Subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8📌 Presented by Tradespace — where ideas take flight.Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- Apr 21, 202619 min
Inventor Gil Hyatt's gift to America — will America accept it?
President Trump and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick pride themselves on being dealmakers and on making the kind of unconventional deals for America no one else could have gotten done. Gil Hyatt is offering them one that sounds like a no-brainer. However, the question remains whether that dealmaking reputation is enough to overcome thirty years of inertia from prior administrations focused on opposing Hyatt, including most notably on keeping any more of his patents from ever issuing.Inventor Gil Hyatt returns to Clause 8 to discuss his proposal to donate foundational AI patents to the Pioneering AI Foundation, a nonprofit he says could help give the U.S. government new leverage to advance American interests. Hyatt also reflects on his decades-long battle with the USPTO, the motivation behind the foundation, and why he sees the project as a gift to America ahead of the nation’s 250th birthday.Will America accept the gift?The episode covers:* 00:23 — the ongoing battle with the USPTO* 02:44 — the Pioneering AI Foundation* 05:35 — using the ITC and trade agreements as leverage* 07:11 — human rights and labor unions: leveling the global playing field* 10:24 — AI in the classroom: the “super headstart” for children* 12:35 — relieving drudgery: AI as a catalyst for creative thinking* 14:27 — addressing skepticism: motives and financials* 16:16 — repaying the dream: the legacy of immigrant parents* 17:34 — advice for the next generation of inventors* 18:22 — final thoughts: destiny and helping America🎧 Watch the full episode above or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content.📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
- Apr 7, 202656 min
The Hidden Costs of “Free” Patent Licensing Initiatives
Is anything in the patent world ever really free?That question anchors a new Clause 8 conversation between host Eli Mazour and Professor Kristen Osenga, a University of Richmond law professor and one of the leading academic voices on standard essential patents.At the center of the discussion is the rise of so-called “royalty-free” technology standards. Osenga’s point is straightforward: “free” often comes with strings attached — particularly for smaller innovators that may be required to cross-license valuable patent rights or accept terms they may later regret.Her main example is the Alliance for Open Media, the tech consortium behind a “royalty-free” video compression standard. The pitch sounds simple: use the standard without paying royalties. But, as Osenga explains, the real question is what companies may be giving up in return — and whether they fully understand the long-term cost of joining.She offers a simple analogy: a store gives away free croissants to get customers in the door. Customers build habits around it. Then one day the sign changes. In Osenga’s view, the same risk exists here. Companies can build products and business models around terms that may not remain as favorable as they first appeared.From there, the discussion broadens into the wider ecosystem of royalty-free standards, cross-licensing organizations, defensive patent pledges, and emerging AI-related IP initiatives. What is driving these arrangements? Collaboration? Public relations? Strategic control? And what, exactly, should companies think through before signing on?As Osenga puts it: “Follow the money … where are these groups making their money? Because it’s probably coming from some other part of their business model.”The episode also covers:* what the pattern of withdrawals from major cross-licensing organizations reveals about how these arrangements play out over time* SEP policy whiplash across US administrations, the Standard Essential Royalties Act (SERA), and where things stand now* the EU’s proposed SEP framework, and why it stalled* the litigation funding debate, including why Osenga founded The Inventors Defense Alliance* the Tillis-Schiff letter to ANSI, China’s push to shape global standards bodies, and the implications for US innovation leadership* why Osenga believes the RESTORE Act is critical to preserving US innovation leadershipIt is a conversation worth sharing with anyone focused on licensing, standards, or innovation policy.🎧 Watch the full episode above or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the new Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content.📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight.Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com
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About Clause 8
Clause 8 is the long-form IP podcast hosted by Eli Mazour, featuring conversations with the people and forces shaping the patent system. Its audience includes sophisticated in-house counsel, judges, IP policymakers, senior USPTO officials, patent dealmakers, and leading practitioners. The show is designed to help listeners stay ahead of the curve by understanding not just the latest patent developments, but the personalities, incentives, and institutions behind them. Clause 8 features conversations that provide strategic insight into patent law, policy, innovation, licensing, and other issues affecting the IP community. Past guests have included major American innovators, federal judges, USPTO Directors, senior IP staff on Capitol Hill, in-house leaders, patent dealmakers — and Carole Baskin’s attorney from Tiger King. Law360 featured Clause 8 first in its 2026 list of “5 Podcasts to Keep IP Attys Entertained and Informed,” describing its guests as “a bit of a who’s who of IP law.” Clause 8 has also been covered or cited by Bloomberg, Courthouse News Service, Above the Law, IAM, Original Jurisdiction, and other publications.
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Frequently Asked Questions
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